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Post by Fingerplucked on Aug 10, 2010 15:57:38 GMT -5
During the New Deal, much spending went into infrastructure, such as the TVA and any number of construction projects that we still rely on today. Many of which were of questionable value at the time.
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Post by omaha on Aug 10, 2010 16:22:16 GMT -5
There is deficit spending and there is deficit spending. During WWII and the Roosevelt era, much of the deficit spending went into infrastructure; into things. A good share of the spending went into making the forest a better place, which benefited the animals of the forest by giving them a better woods to do their thing in. During the New Deal, much spending went into infrastructure, such as the TVA and any number of construction projects that we still rely on today. Try building a big dam today. Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. We used to brag about building dams. Now we brag about tearing them down.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Aug 10, 2010 16:25:33 GMT -5
Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. "... and tearing down a dam . . . Priceless."
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Post by patrick on Aug 10, 2010 16:47:24 GMT -5
Try building a big dam today. Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. We used to brag about building dams. Now we brag about tearing them down. I wouldn't try to build a big dam today for the same reason I wouldn't try to start a blacksmith business. The time is past for those. But a nationwide smart grid could be today's equivalent of rural electrification. And a network of high speed rails today's equivalent of the Interstate Highway System.
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Post by AlanC on Aug 10, 2010 17:22:27 GMT -5
Try building a big dam today. Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. We used to brag about building dams. Now we brag about tearing them down. I wouldn't try to build a big dam today for the same reason I wouldn't try to start a blacksmith business. The time is past for those. But a nationwide smart grid could be today's equivalent of rural electrification. And a network of high speed rails today's equivalent of the Interstate Highway System. If we waste our money on those things instead of "restoring America's military", the next time we need to bomb the shit out of some brown people, we won't have enough bombs. Bet you didn't think of that. People are so short sighted.
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Post by Doug on Aug 10, 2010 17:22:43 GMT -5
Try building a big dam today. Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. We used to brag about building dams. Now we brag about tearing them down. I wouldn't try to build a big dam today for the same reason I wouldn't try to start a blacksmith business. The time is past for those. But a nationwide smart grid could be today's equivalent of rural electrification. And a network of high speed rails today's equivalent of the Interstate Highway System. We have to stop thinking "nation wide" and start thinking local. Nothing nation wide makes sense as what is good for New England is bad for the South West and visea versa. Responsible government for 300 million people is unworkable the only way to govern 300 million people is totalitarianism.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 10, 2010 17:27:54 GMT -5
In his old age, Barry Goldwater was asked about votes he regretted casting in the Senate. He said his biggest regret was voting for Glen Canyon Dam, which created Lake Powell. That was a good answer, I thought.
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Post by omaha on Aug 10, 2010 17:38:28 GMT -5
Try building a big dam today. Hell, American Express is running a commercial where some guy is bragging about how he is working to take down a dam somewhere in the Northwest. We used to brag about building dams. Now we brag about tearing them down. I wouldn't try to build a big dam today for the same reason I wouldn't try to start a blacksmith business. The time is past for those. And yet we are subsidizing windmills like crazy: More environmental impact, greater expense, all for unreliable power. And at least with dams we get a big lake out of the bargain...not to mention flood control (and reliable power too). Is it any wonder people have had enough of this ridiculous, agenda-driven spending?
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 10, 2010 18:00:18 GMT -5
Isn't all spending agenda-driven?
I'd be curious to hear how windmills have "more environmental impact" than giant dams that submerge substantial chunks of the landscape and alter water availability for all the downstream territories. And that's not a snarky question--I'm aware of some problems with wind power, but not that they're on the scale of, say, damming the Colorado.
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Post by billhammond on Aug 10, 2010 18:10:49 GMT -5
Isn't all spending agenda-driven? I'd be curious to hear how windmills have "more environmental impact" than giant dams that submerge substantial chunks of the landscape and alter water availability for all the downstream territories. And that's not a snarky question--I'm aware of some problems with wind power, but not that they're on the scale of, say, damming the Colorado. To sum up, Russ is praising with feint dams.
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Post by Doug on Aug 10, 2010 18:19:14 GMT -5
At least 40 miles of the Columbia Gorge looks like this:
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Post by epaul on Aug 10, 2010 18:22:30 GMT -5
Dams and windmills are one thing, the grid is another.
No matter what future is realistically envisioned for the future of energy in this country, the movement of electricity from point A to points B, C, D, E, and F is a constant. Doesn't matter whether the electricity comes from coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind, water, earth or sun, the grid will be at the very heart of it. No matter what we do to generate electricity, we will need the grid to sort it, shuffle it, and deliver it to where it is needed when it is needed.
As our current grid is an improvised patchwork that is not up to the needs of the present never mind the future, I would think the building of a unified smart grid would be something quite a few folks from left to right and across the middle could get behind. A smart grid is the perfect national project. Not even the most fervent independent power generator wants anything to do with the nightmare of constructing power lines and the headache of coordinating one set of lines with another set of lines.
(clutch and shift)
There are two problems with taxation. One is the loss of personal money. That's a big one. But the other is the sense that not only is your money being taken, but that it is being wasted and pissed away into nothing by a bunch of irresponsible assholes. There would be a lot less resentment and battle if the taxes intended for economic stimulus and job creation went for a nice, shiny new smart grid that saved electrons by the billions and billions every day it was in operation instead of lining the billfolds of crooked bankers, welfare queens, and assorted warlords and mercenaries.
I believe it would be good for this country to build something big, smart, and visible again. We have had a forty-year dry spell. Time for another moon shot.
.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Aug 10, 2010 18:26:48 GMT -5
What is wrong with dams? Glen Canyon Dam provides 5% of all the electricity in Arizona and 13% of all the electricity in Utah. Would you rather replace that with a coal burning plant for the last 44 years?
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 10, 2010 18:27:10 GMT -5
"No matter what we do to generate electricity, we will need the grid to sort it, shuffle it, and deliver it to where it is needed when it is needed."
Not when I work out the kinks in my solar- and wind-powered propeller beanie.
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Post by Doug on Aug 10, 2010 18:28:40 GMT -5
Off the grid.
Everyone should supply their own electricity.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 10, 2010 18:52:14 GMT -5
When the power went out on the East Coast in 1965 my town had power because we had locally generated hydro-electric and a local distribution system.
Smart grid will be great and you can build it on the moon if you can get there before the environmentalists do.
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Post by theevan on Aug 10, 2010 19:10:37 GMT -5
(clutch and shift) There are two problems with taxation. One is the loss of personal money. That's a big one. But the other is the sense that not only is your money being taken, but that it is being wasted and pissed away into nothing by a bunch of irresponsible assholes. There would be a lot less resentment and battle if the taxes intended for economic stimulus and job creation went for a nice, shiny new smart grid that saved electrons by the billions and billions every day it was in operation instead of lining the billfolds of crooked bankers, welfare queens, and assorted warlords and mercenaries. . Right on, Paul! Makes me think of Sierra Leone, in a news item today. They're trying to levy a tax to begin rebuilding their basic infrastructure. The populace desperately wants their roads repaired and something of a water system. But there's no way they're giving tax money to sleazebags in charge. Catch 22. I think it applies here, on a different level, of course. I love my local library. I like the way they spend my money. I always vote yes on their levies. Simple, huh?
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 10, 2010 19:31:50 GMT -5
"What is wrong with dams?"
A partial answer.
Dams kill rivers. No hyperbole there. They kill the scenery and the ecosystems and all else. That looms larger in the west because riparian areas are where most of the life is, or was. Glen Canyon was reported to be (and appears to have been) remarkably beautiful.
In the resulting reservoirs, nothing grows between the low- and high-water marks. Lake Powell has a dirty bathtub ring at that point.
The fluctuating water flows destroy wildlife habitat downstream.
Fish species get creamed.
All the reservoirs will ultimately silt up and become mud flats with concrete waterfalls. Won't take that long, either.
Dams were created chiefly to support irrigation agriculture, which is the agricultural equivalent of strip mining. Salinization poisons and kills the soil pretty quickly. Much reclaimed land in the west will go out of production in this century as a result of it. Salinization of the soil contributes to the fact that desertification is proceeding faster in the western US than in westen Africa.
Dams are the hub of all that was wrong in the development of the west, much of it proceeding from a desire to turn the west into Ohio rather than adapting ourselves to it. Wallace Stegner referred to the dams in the west as "original sin." We're fighting a prolonged battle with geology and nature. An arrogant fool's battle. We'll lose and should lose.
"Glen Canyon Dam provides 5% of all the electricity in Arizona and 13% of all the electricity in Utah."
The energy is nice.
"Would you rather replace that with a coal burning plant for the last 44 years?"
If that were the choice, probably. But that's like asking whether I'd prefer to support a crack habit with pimping or burglary.
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Post by millring on Aug 10, 2010 19:35:45 GMT -5
(clutch and shift) There are two problems with taxation. One is the loss of personal money. That's a big one. But the other is the sense that not only is your money being taken, but that it is being wasted and pissed away into nothing by a bunch of irresponsible assholes. There would be a lot less resentment and battle if the taxes intended for economic stimulus and job creation went for a nice, shiny new smart grid that saved electrons by the billions and billions every day it was in operation instead of lining the billfolds of crooked bankers, welfare queens, and assorted warlords and mercenaries. . Right on, Paul! Makes me think of Sierra Leone, in a news item today. They're trying to levy a tax to begin rebuilding their basic infrastructure. The populace desperately wants their roads repaired and something of a water system. But there's no way they're giving tax money to sleazebags in charge. Catch 22. I think it applies here, on a different level, of course. I love my local library. I like the way they spend my money. I always vote yes on their levies. Simple, huh? Plus, it's remarkably easy to see the danger in a mistrust of government when it's "your guys" in charge and not trusted.... ...and it's almost impossible to trust the governement when "THEY" are in charge.
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Post by dradtke on Aug 10, 2010 19:47:30 GMT -5
But how do the libraries keep the river from flooding?
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