Writing a ballad

[Village Idiot]

One of the first songs I learned to play was Barbara Allan. As you folks know, it goes on and on and on and on. I liked it, though, because I like ballads. Listening to Van Zandt's Tecumseh Valley Friday, it occured to me that I've never written a ballad, but have always wanted to, and if I stole his melody and changed a couple notes, I could.

It looks odd, but the words seem to fit. It is a true story from around here, something I've posted about before. I didn't want the song to go one forever, so a lot of detail is left out. I guess my question is if the story makes sense or not. Kim says it's pretty wordy. Click on this picture to see the grave that is in the song:

Ballad of an Indian Girl

No one ever knew her name
Or what they called her
They just knew she was an Indian girl
Who died by the Cedar River

The year was 1881
A hard time for the Indians
Their land was gone when the fences came
All they had was the Cedar river

They camped one night outside of town
Across the Cedar River
When death came to the Indian girl
And she was gone from them forever

Dirt poor Indians had no land
but the needed a place to keep her
So the crossed the bridge and learned from the town
About the cemetary by the Cedar River

They buried her there on the outside of town
And then they had to leave her
In an unmarked grave where the grass would grow
And no one would ever find her

(instrumental)

Ten years drifted by
And no one thought of her
then the Indians came back again
With a stone to mark the place of their daughter

They marked her grave far from where she laid
so no one could ever find her
Because in those days an Indian grave
Was something to uncover

No one ever knew her name
Or what they called her
They just knew she was an Indian girl
Who died by the Cedar River

[Cornflake]

Yes, it makes sense. I think you've mentioned this story before. Anyway, I like it, although it's hard to get a feel for it without the music.

As for whether it's wordy, I think that depends on the music. If the music's as slow as Barbara Allen, then it's a very long song.

Glad you're listening to Townes Van Zandt.

[Village Idiot]

I'll try to get an mp3 of this to you sometime this week, Cornflake, if you don't mind.

[davidhanners]

I like it a lot. Ballads are just classic storytelling: Tell folks what you're going to tell them about, tell them, then tell them what you just told 'em.

There are just a couple of "tweaks" I'd made here and there. I really, REALLY like how the first two verses end with "Cedar River" and I'm wondering what would happen if you found a way to end every verse with something about the Cedar River.

Also, the line "Dirt poor Indians had no land" really doesn't convey to me the dire straits that the Indians were in, mostly because we evicted them from their land.

Also, I'm not quite sure what is meant by the next-to-last verse. As I read it, I think what it means is they placed the grave marker far from the actual grave to protect the grave from souvenir hunters.

But those are just personal observations, and history has demonstrated I don't know everything. It is a wonderful, haunting ballad, and I doff my chapeau to your facility with words.

[Village Idiot]

I can't thank you enough, David. I really appreciate your points. Seriously.

the line "Dirt poor Indians had no land" really doesn't convey to me the dire straits that the Indians were in, mostly because we evicted them from their land.

I agree, and I didn't like that line when I put it up. The picture I imagine of Indians in the midwest in the 1880's isn't one of the Noble Savage, but small bands dressed in charity clothes. The Indian in a worn out jacket and top hat. Maybe simply "the Indians" would convey that? Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Also, I'm not quite sure what is meant by the next-to-last verse. As I read it, I think what it means is they placed the grave marker far from the actual grave to protect the grave from souvenir hunters.

You are absolutely right, although the message doesn't convey that. There are two odd things about this story, and stating both would involve too much detail and too many verses. One is that the stone is petrified wood, which doesn't come from around here at all. It's odd that it was hauled that far for this girl. That's just too much for a song. The other odd thing about the story is that it is indeed conjectured that they put the stone somewhere else to keep souvenir hunters away, although no one can say for sure. Stating that purpose would, I'm thinking, take away from the song, but I'd like to somehow leave that in there.

the first two verses end with "Cedar River" and I'm wondering what would happen if you found a way to end every verse with something about the Cedar River.

I wondered the same thing when I was writing, but things came too fast and I didn't take the time to work with that.

With your comments, David, here's a re-write:

Ballad of an Indian Girl

No one ever knew her name
Or what they called her
They just knew she was an Indian girl
Who died by the Cedar River

The year was 1881
A hard time for the Indians
Their land was gone when the fences came
All they had was the Cedar river

They camped one night outside of town
And she went gone from them forever
Because death had come to the Indian girl
Beside the Cedar River

The Indians had no land
but they needed a place to keep her
So they crossed the bridge and learned from the town
About the cemetary by the Cedar River

They buried her there on the outside of town
And then they had to leave her
In an unmarked grave where the grass would grow
Beside the Cedar River

(instrumental)

Ten years passed when the Indians came again
When no one had thought of her
With a stone to mark their daughter's place
Beside the Cedar River

In those days an Indian grave
Was something to uncover
So they marked her grave far from where she laid
Beside the Cedar River

No one ever knew her name
Or what they called her
They just knew she was an Indian girl
Who died by the Cedar River

[davidhanners]

Amazing job! I'm anxious to hear it, but it reads like a timeless classic.

[Village Idiot]

Thanks, David. I really appreciate your ideas. I'll try to get an mp3 done this week, and will email it to you.

[Cornflake]

Please send me the email too, VI. I think the rewrite improved it. I disagreed with David's comment about having all the verses end on "Cedar River" but that probably works as well.

[Marshall]

I think it works great as a story. Didn't we discuss this one some time (years) ago ?

The grave things is OK by me, except maybe this might be a little less awkward verbally:

Because in those days Indian remains
Would soon be uncovered

I don't think you need to embellish the idea. By now we all know what that means. (It's OK to let the listener's imagination embellish things).

Somehow I'd like to hear more about that wonderful marker. Maybe a description of it; the petrified wood; petrified emotions. I don't know. It's a haunting visual thing right there smack dab in the midst of white american settler heritage. It says something symbolic by itself. Somehow I feel like, I want that symbolic solitary image to be a more central conveyor of the message in a song. Maybe that's a different song. Maybe it alredy does.

on edit: it's a rock.

Rough hewn rock; rough hewn emotions

Hard worked rock; Hard worked emotions

Chiseled rock; chiseled hearts

[Cornflake]

VI, I like Marshall's thought about hearing more about the stone. Also, I think you can tell the rest of the story in fewer verses if that would help. These verses seem to say it all. You'd have to tinker with the wording of the second verse if you took this approach.

The year was 1881
A hard time for the Indians
Their land was gone when the fences came
All they had was the Cedar river

They camped one night outside of town
And she went gone from them forever
Because death had come to the Indian girl
Beside the Cedar River

They buried her there on the outside of town
And then they had to leave her
In an unmarked grave where the grass would grow
Beside the Cedar River

Ten years passed when the Indians came again
When no one had thought of her
With a stone to mark their daughter's place
Beside the Cedar River

[More about the stone]

In those days an Indian grave
Was something to uncover
So they marked her grave far from where she laid
Beside the Cedar River

No one ever knew her name
Or what they called her
They just knew she was an Indian girl
Who died by the Cedar River

[Village Idiot]

Thanks, guys. Now you've got me thinking hard. I think the stone itself is odd enough to warrant its own song. It must have come from Arizona or something, because it's a big slab of petrified wood.

The only thing done to it, besides cementing it upright in the ground, was a hole drilled into the top, so the smaller rock, which resembles a head, could be affixed on top. The has a piece of rerod cemented into it, so when placed into the larger stone it could turn freely in every direction. The head disappeared on occasions, but it always came back after a few weeks. Usually when something like that vanishes, it's gone forever. Everything, that is, about this head.

What was it about this girl that warranted going so far to haul a 1 ton stone? How did they get there? How did they get it back? What was there connection there, and what made them choose that stone? Was it that particular stone they were after? Why 10 years later? What about the head? Why was it placed the way it was, and why did it keep coming back?

Anyway, that's a song in itself.

Cornflake, I'll play with your version tonight. Something tells me that this song should start and end with the same verse, though. I'll time it, and if it's an acceptable length I'll probably keep it all.

[Marshall]

Ask not for whom the bell tolls
It tolls for us.

[davidhanners]

While the nature of the stone may be interesting, I don't think the song (or we) should get hung up on it. Basically, this song boils down to a basic thought: We took so much from the Indians that their graves weren't even safe. That's the story here. It's one of simple human dignity, and I think the song now does a great job of getting that across.

[Cornflake]

I could argue that one either way, David. The stone has power because it's a concrete thing and it didn't belong there, meaning it had to be hauled a long way. A tribute means more if it took hard work to make it. The story of the stone could say that without any need for a sermon.

I find myself hearing "Cortez the Killer" in my mind. Probably Neil's best song.

"And they carried 'em to the flatlands
And they died along the way...."

[Marshall]

Without the stone there's no memory. And there it stands a becon through the ages waiting for the eyes of some idiot to ask, "Why, all this ?" That's what I ferst thought.

It's a symbol, not any more.

I've taken a quickie listen to Todd's mp3. Certainly the simple repetetive "Beside the Cedar River" phrase anchors the story. And here to this day beside that Cedar River still lies the grave. So, it would be a tricky premise to rip apart a story and reconstruct it around a different symbol (the rock) when there's already the Cedar River as a constant reminder of the river of life.

Different ways to slice the fruit.

[davidhanners]

While I strongly preface this with A) it's just my opinion and B) songwriting isn't an exact science, I would posit that there are some ingredients a good ballad should have. Among them is a strong sense of "place," which this one has in terms of the Cedar River.

The other thing a ballad should have is a fine balance between details, allegory and poetry. I think of great ballads like "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" or James Keelaghan's "Cold Missouri Waters" (one of the best tunes ever written, I think) and they do that well. They have good detail but there isn't so much detail that it gets in the way of the fundamental story. And they counter that detail with figurative imagery and poetry, and I think that is exactly what Cornflake has done here with his re-write.

Here's the second verse of "Cold Missouri Waters" and I think it serves as a good example of what I'm talking about:

August 'Forty-Nine, north Montana
The hottest day on record, the forest tinder dry
Lightning strikes in the mountains
I was crew chief at the jump base, I prepared the boys to fly
Pick the drop zone, C-47 comes in low
Feel the tap upon your leg that tells you go
See the circle of the fire down below
Fifteen of us dropped above the cold Missouri waters

There is detail: C-47 (name the songs that have C-47s in them....), drop zone, crew chief, ; there is sense of time and place: 1949, North Montana; there is poetry. Cornflake has done this here, and that balance is something we rarely see in most ballads.

[Cornflake]

"Cornflake has done this here...."

How did you know I was VI's ghostwriter?

[davidhanners]

I was speaking in the future tense, i.e., Cornflake would soon be writing a ballad that had all these ingredients....

Oooops. My deepest apologies to VI. He writes a great tune, and I get in a hurry and attribute it to Cornflake. A heartfelt "I'm sorry" to everyone involved.

[Village Idiot]

David, I made an mp3, but I don't have your email. Email me if you want to hear it. [e-mail]
And thanks again for the encouragement.

[Marshall]

I would posit that there are some ingredients a good ballad should have

OK, I guess I'll accept that. But, then, I've never written a ballad. Nor do I really want to. I love you guys historical stories. But I've never even thought of trying to do (or peform) one. I did a tune once that has the first verse set in the French Revolution, and the second verse in present day; trying to show parallels in the human experience that applied then and now. But it was fictional. (I had visited Sainte Chappelle in Paris and was struck by the story that Marie Ant-won-net had visited that chapel before loosing her head). It was the experience of the chappel (sanctuary) I was going for. That's what resonated to me.

This story resonates on many levels. Certainly a song (ballad ?) needs to know what it wants to communicate. You can argue that sticking to a linear telling of the story developes the points in real time. It moves the listener through teh historical events. The power is in the reality (humanity/tragedy) of the story. Conclusions are drawn in the heads of the listeners.

I guess I don't think linearlly. I go more for creating an impression. And I see the haunting image of the rock as calling me to examine it's reason for being. What human emotion caused so much effort. It's the girl and the family and the hardship and the clashing of cultures that are the story. Of course the ballad form allows that to all be exposed.

I'm talking in circles, you know.