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Post by Doug on Jul 23, 2014 19:49:18 GMT -5
Sent to me in an email.
Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?
Let me explain.
We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends,
and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose,
but we don’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
It's quite simple, really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 19:53:00 GMT -5
So what part confuses you, Doug? The Middle East has been like that for centuries.
The problem is we've tried, and to a large extent the Israelis have tried, to overlay nonsensical templates over it all.
My Dad once said that the only way to solve the Middle East was to wall it off and allow them to kill each other.
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Post by RickW on Jul 23, 2014 21:58:17 GMT -5
Paul, I'm pretty sure that if there wasn't a lot of oil in the ground, we would have essentially done that a long time ago. Note the lack of time and resources spent in Africa and much of Asia.
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Post by coachdoc on Jul 24, 2014 7:37:04 GMT -5
The game changer is the vast military superiority Israel has over the Palestinians. Palestinians kill an Israeli border guard or teen, and Israel bombs the shit out of a 'carefully selected target,' killing a few to hundreds of Palestinians, many of them civilians. That isn't war, it is slaughter at the level of how we removed Indians from the West. We seem to be quite comfortable with it.
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Post by Doug on Jul 24, 2014 8:27:42 GMT -5
I posted that to emphasize the ridiculousness of it all. Not to pick sides. I even had it vetted* for side taking.  Sorry I didn't mean for it to be something decisive here.  * Had Dennis read it before I posted it to see if it had a right or left slant. |
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Post by drlj on Jul 24, 2014 9:11:34 GMT -5
The older I get, the more I am confused about everything.
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Post by coachdoc on Jul 24, 2014 9:16:21 GMT -5
I am not confused about one thing it's humans getting killed and it's humans doing the killing. Right now one side is getting disproportionately slaughtered.
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Post by millring on Jul 24, 2014 9:19:00 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity:
1. Is it okay for Israel to retaliate for being bombed?
2. If so, then how?
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Post by coachdoc on Jul 24, 2014 9:27:48 GMT -5
I dunno. Do you? Somehow if you take the eye for an eye stance, it ought to be an eye for an eye, not the whole damn body and much of the neighborhood as well.
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Post by millring on Jul 24, 2014 9:56:27 GMT -5
No, that's why I'm asking. From what I've read and heard, Israel is acting in response to being bombed. If they're not being bombed, then they certainly shouldn't be acting as if they have. |
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Post by patrick on Jul 24, 2014 10:47:10 GMT -5
No, that's why I'm asking. From what I've read and heard, Israel is acting in response to being bombed. If they're not being bombed, then they certainly shouldn't be acting as if they have. Yeah, that's their story and the one being repeated ad nauseum in most of the media. But this current conflict didn't start when rockets were fired from Gaza. When Hamas and Fatah agreed to form a unity govt, Netanyahu was furious, because he's been saying for a long time he can't negotiate with the Palestinians because they're divided. (And to join the unity govt, Hamas agreed to abide by previous agreements, including Israel's right to exist, so that old argument is gone.) Netanyahu knew if he ratcheted up the pressure on the Palestinians, some one would react. In May, two Palestinian teenagers were gunned down in the street in a Nakba observation. That didn't work. Then, when a couple of local clowns kidnapped those three teens, thinking they could trade them for prisoners, they panicked and killed them almost immediately. The Israeli govt knew they were dead within 24 hours of the kidnapping. Netanyahu LIED to the families, Israelis, and the world. He issued a gag order to prevent anyone in the media or govt from leaking that information, and began a campaign in the West Bank, ostensibly to find the 3 boys who he already knew were dead, and arrested about 500 Palestinians, killed a number, including a number of children, and started a campaign of racial incitement in Israel that culminated in Israeli racists kidnapping a Palestinian teenager and burning him to death. Finally, non-Hamas militants began firing rockets, Netanyahu blamed it on Hamas, and the rest is history. Didn't hear that on US media, did you? |
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Post by millring on Jul 24, 2014 10:51:04 GMT -5
So now it's the left that claiming media bias? This IS confusing.
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Post by Doug on Jul 24, 2014 11:00:46 GMT -5
I think the point of the thing was that no one knows what's going on including the people involved.
While I don't doubt what Patrick wrote I don't see that it has any more validity than anything else being reported.
Seems to me that it's long past anyone fixing the middle east. Nuke Israel and completely remove everyone in the country and the mess would still be going strong. There is zero solution either locally there or by outside influence.
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Post by epaul on Jul 24, 2014 11:35:24 GMT -5
... Didn't hear that on US media, did you? Nope. None of it. What media is reporting what you just posted? Especially the parts about what Netanyaho knew and when he was supposed to have known it and Hamas accepting Israel's right to exist? Forgive my skepticism, but it sounds like it came from the Palestinian Times (op ed page). Where are you getting this stuff? |
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Post by epaul on Jul 24, 2014 11:41:21 GMT -5
I do think it is unfair that so many more Palestinians are being killed than Israelis. It would be more fair, and more sporting, if the Israeli army would kill an Israeli for every Palestinian that dies. That is the way to fight a war with honor.
Maybe if before they blew up one of those Hamas tunnels they would fill it up with Israeli school children, people would look more kindly upon their attempts to defend themselves from Hamas.
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Post by epaul on Jul 24, 2014 11:51:42 GMT -5
There was a time things could have been different between the Palestinians and Israel. If ...
But, I think that "if" is long gone. I think Israel has to hammer Gaza, hammer it hard, and not stop until Hamas is shredded. And now is as good a time as any. Probably a very good time, given the current chaos in the Middle East.
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Post by patrick on Jul 24, 2014 13:05:15 GMT -5
Nope. None of it. What media is reporting what you just posted? Especially the parts about what Netanyaho knew and when he was supposed to have known it and Hamas accepting Israel's right to exist? Forgive my skepticism, but it sounds like it came from the Palestinian Times (op ed page). Where are you getting this stuff? There's a Palestinian Times? Can I get weekend delivery, like the NYT? Any restaurant reviews? No, I get my information from a number of sources. Here's some pertinent to this story: Forward, the Jewish Daily newsmagazine. "How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza"From Uri Avnery, probably the most informed and experienced commentator on Israel (Avnery was born in Germany before the rise of the Nazis. His family to moved to Israel, Uri was a member of the Irgun terrorist group fighting the British, then fought in Israel's War of Independence, former member of the Knesset). "The Atrocity"Juan Cole: Netanyahu’s Bad Faith: From Gag orders to War as Bread and CircusesThere's plenty more, once you leave the US media behind. |
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Post by epaul on Jul 24, 2014 13:11:00 GMT -5
To be clear, I have no doubt Patrick has a source(s), with the fairness and accuracy of the source(s) subject to dispute by other sources, as it is with sources seeking to explain the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Lots and lots of sources, and all of them dead on right, sort of, from their perspective.
No doubt, the Palestinians have a list of grievances long enough to circle the globe twice over, and they will present it to you asked or not. No doubt the Israelis have a list of the crimes and promise of crimes perpetrated and about to perpetrated against them by Palestinians. And there is no doubt of this, as well, as there is enough evidence to sink an ocean liner big enough sail two oceans at once.
And there is no doubt that both Israel and Hamas have been planning and preparing for this war from the very moment the last one came to a false and deceptive halt. It is time to let them have the war they want.
As for the innocents? It is the innocents that have kept this thing going through the generations. Behind every war is an innocent.
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Post by RickW on Jul 24, 2014 13:51:35 GMT -5
No matter how you slice and dice it, Israel is entitled to protect themselves. No matter how you slice and dice it, Hamas is firing from areas full of civilians. No matter how you slice and dice it, Israel is better armed, and capable of causing deep mayhem. And if Mexico started firing rockets into San Diego, the public would be demanding that they be burned to the ground and pissed on.
It's a horrible, intractable situation. But I can't blame the Israelis. You can say the Palestinians are brave for standing up for themselves. Or complete idiots. Or both.
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Post by patrick on Jul 24, 2014 14:11:59 GMT -5
If a foreign army invaded the US and killed US citizens and destroyed our homes and imprisoned thousands without trial for years, would we fight back?
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Sorry I didn't mean for it to be something decisive here. 
