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Post by Lonnie on Nov 15, 2014 17:15:53 GMT -5
No bout adoubt it, it IS a hideous shirt.
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 15, 2014 17:30:53 GMT -5
Stumbled on to this on my FB feed. Here's the woman who made the shirt: And here's what she had to say about this kerfuffle:
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Post by patrick on Nov 15, 2014 18:12:19 GMT -5
The criticism of the criticism of the criticism is what's really over the top. But in all seriousness, its a bad choice in shirts, but the idea that women interested in careers in science are so fragile as to be dissuaded by that strikes me as rather sexist itself. Clearly, the criticism of the criticism of the criticism of the criticism is becoming dangerously irrational. Women aren't dissuaded by one geek wearing a shirt, but, to quote a great philosopher, "Its just one more brick in the wall." One more sign that science is just another boy's club, full of grown up frat boys. Its sweet that his girlfriend made the shirt, it still doesn't pass any standard of professionalism in a workplace.
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Post by Doug on Nov 15, 2014 18:35:21 GMT -5
The criticism of the criticism of the criticism is what's really over the top. But in all seriousness, its a bad choice in shirts, but the idea that women interested in careers in science are so fragile as to be dissuaded by that strikes me as rather sexist itself. Clearly, the criticism of the criticism of the criticism of the criticism is becoming dangerously irrational. Women aren't dissuaded by one geek wearing a shirt, but, to quote a great philosopher, "Its just one more brick in the wall." One more sign that science is just another boy's club, full of grown up frat boys. Its sweet that his girlfriend made the shirt, it still doesn't pass any standard of professionalism in a workplace.
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 15, 2014 18:56:41 GMT -5
There is an interesting division between the "sex-positive" feminist community (call it the Camille Paglia wing) and the "anti-sex" feminist community (call it the Andrea Dworkin wing).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 21:24:12 GMT -5
Camille Paglia is well known for her virulent criticism of much current feminist theory, sex-positive (the majority), or otherwise and can not easily be argued to be a prominent member of any feminist community, at least in the academic sense. Her 'fuck you' attitude to so many feminists has somewhat alienated them. She does however call herself a 'dissident feminist'. The value of the late Ms. Dworkin's rather extreme and absolute philosophical currency has considerably diminished since her 80s heyday.
Feminism has 'lightened up' in it's messaging generally speaking, but the anti-feminist and MRA type shit is agitating a lot of people these days. It's all getting a bit ugly.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 21:39:07 GMT -5
The shirt objectifies women and is unworthy of a professional workplace, which I'm assuming ESA's Rosetta mission control is. And if you're a female colleague of this guy, do you really want to be sitting next to that shirt? Plus, it says something about his judgment that he would choose to wear it on the one day he was certain that his workplace would be filled with news cameras from around the world. (I think if you look up "clueless, sexist attention-seeker" in the dictionary, you get this guy's photo.)
If I'd had a co-worker wear a shirt like that in any workplace I've toiled in, he -- it is always a "he" -- would've been sent home to change.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 21:45:18 GMT -5
He seems quite a nice guy as far as I can tell and regrets his wardrobe choice and understands it's inappropriateness. I think some people are being a little harsh about him personally. I think he's a blokey type but not a bad person.
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 16, 2014 1:04:14 GMT -5
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Post by jdd2 on Nov 16, 2014 3:36:46 GMT -5
The shirt objectifies women and is unworthy of a professional workplace, which I'm assuming ESA's Rosetta mission control is. And if you're a female colleague of this guy, do you really want to be sitting next to that shirt? Plus, it says something about his judgment that he would choose to wear it on the one day he was certain that his workplace would be filled with news cameras from around the world. (I think if you look up "clueless, sexist attention-seeker" in the dictionary, you get this guy's photo.) If I'd had a co-worker wear a shirt like that in any workplace I've toiled in, he -- it is always a "he" -- would've been sent home to change. yes.
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Post by patrick on Nov 16, 2014 15:33:06 GMT -5
She actually has some really nice looking shirts there, if you go for that style. He could have chosen any number of them and no one would have said anything other than "Where'd you get that cool shirt?" Now he just looks like a clueless geek. I can't imagine a woman scientist showing up at work wearing this:
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Post by Doug on Nov 16, 2014 15:42:37 GMT -5
She actually has some really nice looking shirts there, if you go for that style. He could have chosen any number of them and no one would have said anything other than "Where'd you get that cool shirt?" Now he just looks like a clueless geek. I can't imagine a woman scientist showing up at work wearing this: You don't know the same women working in science that I do.
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Post by patrick on Nov 16, 2014 16:46:05 GMT -5
Are they single? More importantly, are they your age?
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Post by Doug on Nov 16, 2014 18:05:05 GMT -5
Are they single? More importantly, are they your age? They weren't all old then but they are all old now. Some single some not. But most with the same attitude as women who work construction etc. The only woopie cushion I ever sat on was set up by the girls in the lab. (Vet Path Lab in Bothel)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 18:49:59 GMT -5
I'm with David here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 18:53:11 GMT -5
I'm also a part-time neanderthal. To wit, the exchange I had with Juliet the other day. We were talking about The Future, and I mentioned to her how, all things being equal, she could do worse than marrying an engineer. She looked at me with That Look, and said, "Well, why would I marry an engineer when I could BE an engineer?"
Game, set, match to Jules, while Dad retreats and tries to figure out how come he still vocalizes antiquated gender roles in the presence of some pretty formidable females.
:/
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Post by fauxmaha on Nov 16, 2014 19:06:38 GMT -5
I was a bit surprised to see a post on my FB feed from a friend who is a locally-famous artist where he strenuously objected to the idea that the shirt was sexist. Even more surprising to see a few dozen female friends of his (most of whom I would put in the "young/hip/artsy" category) vigorously agree with him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 21:03:20 GMT -5
It's about context.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 21:16:52 GMT -5
If a woman rolls up to a tire-fitting business and notices topless calendars and other pæans to the semi naked female form adorning the walls and the manager of the business tells her that her car is "sexy, by which he doesn't mean easy", is she going to feel more or less comfortable as a job applicant in that all male workplace?
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Post by Doug on Nov 17, 2014 6:48:04 GMT -5
If she's looking for a job "there" then she would feel comfortable.
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