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Post by RickW on Apr 26, 2015 13:17:49 GMT -5
My friend Kerry who made my tenor guitar, it's making an archtop tenor now. Spent some time with a builder on Vancouver island who is showing him how. I have never played a nice acoustic archtop, so I don't really know what the tonal difference should be. It should be louder, I know that. I've always thought they would be less "woody", or "breathy", more of a flat tone? Which probably doesn't make much sense. Those who make/play them, what should the expected result be like?
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 26, 2015 13:45:46 GMT -5
The standard take is that an archtop has more midrange and less sustain, more "bark" or "punch," which I think is another way of saying midrange/short-sustain.
This video shows off what is to my ear the classic archtop sound and range:
Of course, it's not a tenor, and the lack of the low-end strings is going to make a difference in the voice. Here's a Gibson tenor from roughly the same period:
When I was looking for examples, I came to the conclusion that many tenors have a thin, banjo-y tone, though some of that could have to do with strings or a player's technique.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,836 
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Post by Dub on Apr 26, 2015 13:59:38 GMT -5
Like flattops, you'll find tone variations all over the map. A good one will have a full rich tone but it won't have the sustain you usually associate with a flattop. The tone will be balanced, not bass heavy, and it will (should) be louder or at least project better out front. You might not notice that as much when playing it yourself.
My Kennedy just sings and the treble strings high up the neck sound almost like a well amplified electric guitar. But it's not intended to replace a flattop for what they do best.
Go to YouTube and find a video of Mother Maybelle Carter playing "Wildwood Flower." Then find some older jazz player using an acoustic even if all you get is the audio. Also, Homer and Jethro did some straight ahead jazz and it may be on YouTube.
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Post by brucemacneill on Apr 26, 2015 14:52:37 GMT -5
Other than practice, I generally play mine plugged in so that's not a fair way to hear it. I don't know about this sustain thing though. A note hit on my L7C tends to ring for a long time. A couple of luthiers have made comments about it when working on it. I have it strung with flat wound strings which are not "Bright" sounding unplugged. It has plenty of bass though and played with a pick, which I rarely do, it's plenty loud. Of course the L7 has a 17" lower bout so it's a big box guitar. As with any guitar, I'd recommend playing a few before you invest any money.
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Post by RickW on Apr 26, 2015 15:30:23 GMT -5
Nice video, Russ. Great sound. Funny, the overall tone reminded me of a carbon fibre guitar, very clean, solid sound. Interesting discussion on playing technique as well. I think you are right on tenor sound. Most people who play them are banjo and mandolin players, because of the tuning. Mine sounds like a beautiful little guitar. I got a slightly deeper box, and I guess I play it like my standard guitar.
Not buying one, Bruce. I wish.
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Post by brucemacneill on Apr 26, 2015 16:17:15 GMT -5
That shouldn't stop you from trying one out if you can find one. Gibson made some L7C's a couple of years ago, Custom Shop I think, but there should still be some around. They're not reviewed as being as good as the originals but still OK. I don't know if they were made in Montana or Nashville. Mine's a '59 from Kalamazoo, Mi. I got it for my birthday in '60. Never had a complaint about tone or sustain or volume or anything.
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Post by Marshall on Apr 26, 2015 19:15:31 GMT -5
The standard take is that an archtop has more midrange and less sustain, more "bark" or "punch," which I think is another way of saying midrange/short-sustain. This video shows off what is to my ear the classic archtop sound and range: That was cool, Russell. |
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Post by RickW on Apr 26, 2015 21:28:37 GMT -5
I have always loved es-175s. I think they are much more of an electric guitar, though.
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Post by brucemacneill on Apr 27, 2015 5:02:51 GMT -5
My ES-165, single pickup version of a 175, is definitely an electric guitar. It is smaller than the L7, thinner too and although it makes some volume unplugged the tone is muddy compared to the acoustic L7C. I would think that the 2nd pickup on the 175 would deaden the top even more.
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 27, 2015 7:50:58 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he uses an X brace or parallel bracing schemes and how high an arch. I like the acoustic sound of an X braced archtop with a lower arch better myself.
The carved top instrument I fell in love with at first sight was that octave mandolin Sarah Jarosz plays. You'd look good with one of those Marshall.
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Post by billhammond on Apr 27, 2015 8:03:37 GMT -5
The carved top instrument I fell in love with at first sight was that octave mandolin Sarah Jarosz plays. You'd look good with one of those Marshall.  OCTAVE MANDOLIN Jarosz’s octave mandolin was built by Fletcher Brock, a one-man operation based in Idaho. “I’ve been seeing Sarah since she was around 12 or 13,” Brock says, “and she ended up buying an octave mandolin I had with me at an IBMA show in Nashville. Kym (Warner) from The Greencards was there and he was playing it and other people were playing it, and I think collectively everyone liked it so that may have helped her decide to get it. When you’re buying something like that it’s always good to get the opinion of another good musician.” As it turned out, Jarosz had been planning to buy an octave mandolin anyway. “I’d actually been saving up for years to buy one,” she says, “and within five minutes of playing the one Fletcher had I knew I had to have it. I’d heard guys like Mike Marshall play, but I especially heard Tim O’Brien play one and I really grew to love that sound. I thought it would be cool to play something to give me a little more of a fuller sound while I sang than just a regular mandolin.” Jarosz’s octave mandolin is guitar-shaped, with a carved, x-braced Engelmann spruce top, two f-holes, curly big leaf maple back and sides, a 14 3/8-inch lower bout, and a 21 1/2-inch scale length. It has Gotoh mini tuners and a Monteleone style tailpiece made by Allen Guitars and a bridge and pickguard made of ebony. The neck is red maple and has two carbon fiber rods which flank a Martin style adjustable truss rod. The case is custom made by Cedar Creek Cases. As for strings, Jarosz has her own method of finding the right ones. “For some reason I really don’t like regular octave mandolin strings, they sound kind of tinny to me. So I use medium sets of guitar strings in different combinations to get the right gauges.” Brock says that, while he builds other instruments, the octave mandolin is in high demand these days, due in part to Jarosz’s playing one. “Close to half of my orders now are for octave mandolins,” he says. “Most conversations start with, ‘I just saw Sarah Jarosz, what was that thing she was playing, I want one.’” – |
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Post by TKennedy on Apr 27, 2015 11:12:40 GMT -5
I'm a gonna make me one of tham thangs one of these days.
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Post by RickW on Apr 27, 2015 20:14:50 GMT -5
I agree, Terry. I love the sound of that instrument. If there one instrument I'd love to get my hands on, that's it.
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Post by RickW on Apr 27, 2015 21:01:54 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he uses an X brace or parallel bracing schemes and how high an arch. I like the acoustic sound of an X braced archtop with a lower arch better myself. The carved top instrument I fell in love with at first sight was that octave mandolin Sarah Jarosz plays. You'd look good with one of those Marshall. He said either h brace or parallel. |
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Post by Marshall on Apr 27, 2015 22:39:35 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he uses an X brace or parallel bracing schemes and how high an arch. I like the acoustic sound of an X braced archtop with a lower arch better myself. The carved top instrument I fell in love with at first sight was that octave mandolin Sarah Jarosz plays. You'd look good with one of those Marshall. Who wouldn't look good with Sarah Jarosz grinning at your side. . . . , Oh, you meant the mandolin ? I like your your X-brace & lower arch discussion. I know the modern ones are made different than the old original archies, because those were meant for bridge cable strings soes they could compete with a big band. But you had to harangue on them. Whereas many modern designs are closer to flat-top designs. A cross-breed, so to speak. But, I'll say it again, I was very impressed with Russell's video on playing and archtop. That is not intuitively obvious, but makes good sense for playing one of the things. The best archie I've ever played was a 1934 Super 400 that some famous jazz guy played. It was for sale at a Vintage Guitar show I attended. His picture was on a stand next to the guitar. They wanted $15k for it. In the hustle bustle of the booth, they must have lost track of the crowd, because I got to walk up, pick it off the stand and play it for a minute or so unmolested. It was very full, balanced, and amazingly mellow. Sounded beautiful. I just smiled, carefully put it back on the stand and walked away shaking my head. |
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Post by Marshall on Apr 28, 2015 9:23:44 GMT -5
I think it was a 1939 Super 400. It had the cutaway. It was definitely a 1930s model. That I remember.
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