Tkennedy, is G truly the greatest key of all time?

[Village Idiot]

I've been working on Dylan's Don't Think Twice, it's Alright this summer. I know exactly what to do with my right hand, and exactly what to do with my left; my brain knows exactly what to tell my fingers to do. It's not that difficult. But I still struggle.

I've been playing under the third fret for 35 years, but there is a difference between this one and its ilk, which I've always avoided, and what I usually do. That difference is that it calls for a continuation of C and F chords, shapes which require more wrist supination than what I usually do. I know that's the issue. It makes my inside lower forearm uncomfortable, and my ring and pinky fingers very weak.

My question, however, is if this is something I can keep working on or should I listen to my body and quit doing what my forearm and wrist tells me it doesn't like? Should I think of continuing as a strengthening exercise for my left fingers and arm, or should I just set that aside and keep on playing what I enjoy? I'm not the best musician, but I'd like to continue doing what I do for as long as possible. Your thoughts or anyone else's would be most appreciated.

[Deleted]

The 1st position C chord leaves you little choice as to which fingers you use but a capo might help if your voice can handle it. I find the full bar F more useful for that tune than a abbreviated F chord, you get a low F bass note and it seems to give your hand a little relief. Learning to play the G chord with the middle, ring and pinky really helps the transition to and from C.

[epaul]

Keep working on it. If by Halloween, it is still uncomfortable, then give it up. Nothing wrong with sticking to G.

Think back to when you first started guitar, all the chords were uncomfortable. But, you eventually got used to the ones you played the most. G and D with only a quick dip into the C zone.

Those C's and F's you are playing now are, to your fingers and wrists, brand new chords you are just learning. And you can expect the discomfort that is often inherent in a new chord shape. Of the basic chords, C has always been my least favorite. When I return to playing after a layoff, I would even rather play a barred A shape up and down the neck than hold a C cleanly. Of course, I lost four fingers in a farming accident which has increased the difficulty.


/

[epaul]

I haven't lost any fingers

[billhammond]

Jul 31, 2015 21:18:18 GMT -5 Village Idiot said:

I've been working on Dylan's Don't Think Twice, it's Alright this summer. I know exactly what to do with my right hand, and exactly what to do with my left; my brain knows exactly what to tell my fingers to do. It's not that difficult. But I still struggle.

I've been playing under the third fret for 35 years, but there is a difference between this one and its ilk, which I've always avoided, and what I usually do. That difference is that it calls for a continuation of C and F chords, shapes which require more wrist supination than what I usually do. I know that's the issue. It makes my inside lower forearm uncomfortable, and my ring and pinky fingers very weak.

My question, however, is if this is something I can keep working on or should I listen to my body and quit doing what my forearm and wrist tells me it doesn't like? Should I think of continuing as a strengthening exercise for my left fingers and arm, or should I just set that aside and keep on playing what I enjoy? I'm not the best musician, but I'd like to continue doing what I do for as long as possible. Your thoughts or anyone else's would be most appreciated.

1. I don't know the word "supination." Did you make it up?
2. Don't ever subject yourself to playing anything that is painful for more than a very brief time. Back off on the hand pressure, breathe deeply and relax, and run through a progression containing the tough fingering and then pressure it lightly with both left hand and strumming hand -- don't worry if you have some string buzzing, just repeat, repeat, repeat. Eventually, your hands will do what they need to do. It's all about relaxing and then developing muscle memory.
3. That's a great song -- I would love to play it with you.

[drlj]

Supination usually refers to the feet. You are not playing with your feet, are you? That might be why it hurts.

Seriously, just relax, keep playing it and pretty soon it will be a lot easier.

[coachdoc]

Humph. Supine is palm up. How does that relate to C chord?
Since you already got some good advice from Don, I'll pile on.
I play a lot in C as that was the key for the first half dozen John Hurt songs I learned. The first trick for making CG and F comfortable is to tip the neck of the guitar up like the classical guitarists do. Next, notice how the middle and ring finger have the same relation to each other as you hold down each of those chords. Practice holding down just those fingers and bounce them back and forth, 4th and 5th string for C chord, 5th and6th for G, 3rd and 4th for F. Now play a three chord song just using those fretted strings.
Now, hold down the C chord and strum then pivot the 2nd and 3rf fingers over for an f chord. Leaving the first string open, also sneak your thumb over the 6th string at the first fret. The key is using the first finger as a pivot and just sneaking that thumb over the edge to grab the sixth string. Now you are holding down an FMA 7. As beautiful a chord as has existed. This is the key to MJH tunes in C. The melody always passes through that E note on the first string. As you are picking or strumming de-emphasize that high string unless the song holds a gun to your head and demands an f on the first string. Most of the time it won't and you can get away without it. If it does demand it, you now have a good position to rock your first finger over on its side to fret the first string. Squeeze hard to start, and let it be muted if you can't get it to ring. Having the thumb on the sixth string and the neck tilted up gives you real good leverage.
So in summary. Learn to pivot you middle and ring finger using the index as an anchor,then drop the other notes in as demanded by the tune. Happy hunting, and take it easy on the mulberries.

[TKennedy]

Saw this late but yup. You really aren't supinating, that relates to eating soup but yeah use the ideas mentioned and move slowly and precisely. Don't worry about speed or meter at first. Increase speed and tempo only when you can do it clean.

At our age it takes a while but you'll get it.

Worst thing is to kind of get it and then try to play at tempo missing notes or deadening strings half the time. You will groove the mistakes and your brain will think that's the way it's supposed to go.

Small doses at first if it's painful, should become easier. Long painful practice sessions could do some damage.

G is still the working man's chord.

Good luck!!

[jdd2]

Changing from a C to using your middle fingers like the above pic for a G (and back) is a very 'sensible', efficient move. I'm not sure about the Dylan song, but if you don't need the low third (A string, 2nd fret), leave that off and mute that string with your third/ring finger. You're then playing a G with your ring & pinky.

edit: Also, the high G there, being played by the pinky. You can also add that to a C chord, and doing that might anchor your hand a little when learning to switch between a C chord and a G chord fingered this way.

[RickW]

A little bit every day, Todd, until it comes. That's the way it works, and no other way. And never play it too fast that it's not right. Work the speed up. Check and see if you are clenching your muscles. Should be relaxed.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[brucemacneill]

Of course, you could substitute Gs for the Cs, Cs for the Fs and Ds for the Gs, A7 for the D7 and just play it in G if that's more comfortable for you. Once you learn to play it in G if you need to sing it in C, capo5 and you're in.

[drlj]

G is many a person's favorite string.

Do 45 push-ups every morning before playing and soon this will all seem easier to you.

[aquaduct]

I think you ought to capo the second fret and use F chords (F, Bb, and Eb). That way all the chords will be equally painful and none of them will feel left out.

[Russell Letson]

Another view of the G fingering suggested above (taken by a friend; Snark optional):




(The pinky is in the process of being redeployed, probably to hit the D note on the B string.)

[millring]

Master it and you too can be a G wiz.

[drlj]

Didn't Dylan play it using C forms capoed on the 4th fret?
That is how I think I used to play it and I did it for some reason or another.

[Village Idiot]

I heard Dylan didn't play it, someone else did.

I guess I had "supination" wrong. I had always imagined turning a door knob supination, as doing so turns your palm up. When play C and F, my palm is facing upwards more than it is with other chords. Thanks for the correction, I hate running around spouting out wrong stuff.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. I'll keep working at it!

[brucemacneill]

Aug 1, 2015 17:48:37 GMT -5 drlj said:

Didn't Dylan play it using C forms capoed on the 4th fret?
That is how I think I used to play it and I did it for some reason or another.

Do you sing in E maybe? Maybe he did. I figure out the easiest key for me to play a song in and then capo it to whatever key I need to sing it in.

[drlj]

I remember learning it from the record and learning it in the same key but I would have to listen to it again to know for sure.

I listened. Key of E using C forms capo on 4th fret.
Doesn't change anything but satisfied my curiosity.

Carry on.

[brucemacneill]

Aug 1, 2015 18:18:56 GMT -5 drlj said:

I remember learning it from the record and learning it in the same key but I would have to listen to it again to know for sure.

I listened. Key of E using C forms capo on 4th fret.
Doesn't change anything but satisfied my curiosity.

Carry on.

That's pretty common. C's a popular key once you get past the F chord. The Lightfoot book I have has "If You Could Read My Mind" in F. But if you try to play the riffs, it's F as in C capo 5. I do "For Lovin' Me" C capo 7 or sometimes 9 depending on how my voice is on a given day. The closeness up there makes the country-ish slides easier anyway.