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Post by epaul on Aug 17, 2017 20:02:03 GMT -5
Who is "They"? Charlottesville, the city, made the decision. Not "They". Charlottesville is in charge of their statues, their flower beds, their Christmas decorations, their parks and playgrounds. Not "They".
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Post by epaul on Aug 17, 2017 20:18:28 GMT -5
I don't care what Charlottesville does with their statues, parks, or flower beds. Not my town, not my business.
I think Trump is cooked and he did the cooking.
I think Stonewall Jackson was either borderline insane or completely so.
I think Robert E. Lee was a decent man faced with a gut wrenching choice and a tragic consequence. He doesn't deserve what either side is doing to him in this statue business. Of course, he's dead so he doesn't care, but it still isn't right.
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Post by Doug on Aug 17, 2017 20:32:34 GMT -5
Historical super tactician, Rommel studied Jackson Valley Campaign to base his desert tactics on. But people who are super great at one thing often are not all there on other things.
I don't know about his sanity but he was arguably the greatest tactician of the 19th century.
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Post by millring on Aug 17, 2017 20:34:50 GMT -5
Nah. He just faced the dumbest enemies.
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 17, 2017 20:48:51 GMT -5
Nah. He just faced the dumbest enemies. Hillary Clinton is that old? ??
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 17, 2017 20:54:39 GMT -5
Makes one wonder when they're coming for the statue of Robert Byrd in the U.S. Capitol?
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Post by epaul on Aug 17, 2017 23:24:10 GMT -5
Historical super tactician, Rommel studied Jackson Valley Campaign to base his desert tactics on. But people who are super great at one thing often are not all there on other things. I don't know about his sanity but he was arguably the greatest tactician of the 19th century. Recent recoveries of several letters and diaries of men who served in the 2nd Virginian, known as "The Stonewall Brigade", call into serious question the "story" that Stonewall Jackson was shot accidentally by his own men. According to these new finds, Jackson's men were so damn sick of that crazy sot roaming through the camp in the middle of the night screaming out hymns and bible verses that they shot him just so they could get some sleep. The '67 autopsy supports this version as it revealed Jackson was shot 32 times that night.
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Post by epaul on Aug 18, 2017 0:29:37 GMT -5
[those recently recovered letters and diaries haven't actually been recovered yet. And the '67 autopsy report may have been fabricated by terrorists or space aliens. In any event, it seems to have disappeared and people aren't sure if it ever existed.]
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 8:26:10 GMT -5
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Post by billhammond on Aug 18, 2017 8:46:45 GMT -5
Copy editor Bill could not get past this little oops: Seattle mayor hands Trump supporters big win Right wing activists compare Seattle Vladimir Lenin statute to Confederate monuments
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 18, 2017 8:57:56 GMT -5
As a Southerner (born in NC and raised in Northern Virginia), I want to go on record as conceding that the North won the war. It has also been my observation that nations do not erect monuments honoring enemies they have fought on the battlefield. It has nothing to do with rewriting history. I've been all over the United Kingdom, and I've never seen a statue of George Washington. Add to that the fact that the Confederacy represents a painful chapter in our history for many of our fellow citizens. Waving a Confederate flag, or venerating a monument to what they consider an era of inhuman oppression, is like forever reopening a wound. As a Southerner, I say, let's be clear-eyed about our history, but - or should I say "and" - remove the monuments.
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Post by Chesapeake on Aug 18, 2017 9:07:50 GMT -5
I don't care what Charlottesville does with their statues, parks, or flower beds. Not my town, not my business. I think Trump is cooked and he did the cooking. I think Stonewall Jackson was either borderline insane or completely so. I think Robert E. Lee was a decent man faced with a gut wrenching choice and a tragic consequence. He doesn't deserve what either side is doing to him in this statue business. Of course, he's dead so he doesn't care, but it still isn't right. To that, I would add: those who call Lee a traitor disregard that duty, honor, and country were baked into his very being. It's just that his first loyalty lay with his state, Virginia, which, like other Southern states, wanted only to leave the Union the same way it had come in: peaceably, and voluntarily. It was Lincoln who told them they couldn't. If one calls Lee a traitor for fighting to break away from the mother country, what would one call G. Washington? A lot depends on what side of the trench one is on - and who gets to write the history. (Hint: it's not the losers.)
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Post by RickW on Aug 18, 2017 10:27:20 GMT -5
I don't care what Charlottesville does with their statues, parks, or flower beds. Not my town, not my business. I think Trump is cooked and he did the cooking. I think Stonewall Jackson was either borderline insane or completely so. I think Robert E. Lee was a decent man faced with a gut wrenching choice and a tragic consequence. He doesn't deserve what either side is doing to him in this statue business. Of course, he's dead so he doesn't care, but it still isn't right. To that, I would add: those who call Lee a traitor disregard that duty, honor, and country were baked into his very being. It's just that his first loyalty lay with his state, Virginia, which, like other Southern states, wanted only to leave the Union the same way it had come in: peaceably, and voluntarily. It was Lincoln who told them they couldn't. If one calls Lee a traitor for fighting to break away from the mother country, what would one call G. Washington? A lot depends on what side of the trench one is on - and who gets to write the history. (Hint: it's not the losers.) I'm reminded of the book Shogun, (which, if folks haven't read it, is one of the great historical novels.) The Japanese had a system where absolute obedience to one's overlord was the expectation, and any deviation was met with instant death. The Japanese Lord who is questioning the English seaman about European history, asks how the English could support the Dutch rebelling against their Spanish masters; no circumstance would permit such rebellion. To which the Englishman replied, "Only if you win." In which case, you get to write the history books.
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Post by epaul on Aug 18, 2017 11:41:26 GMT -5
Too many commentators have no imagination. I admit I was primed to go off on Lee yesterday because for two days I have reading a stream of comments in the Minneapolis Star Tribune comment section calling Lee a dirty traitor whose only statue should be a depiction of him swinging at the end of a rope. Not one comment, not five comments, hundreds of comments calling Lee a traitor more deserving of a rope than a statue.
U.S. Grant, who fought him, and those on both sides of the line who knew him, regarded Lee as a decent man of honor and a remarkable leader. But a bunch of idiot young twerps fresh out of Starbucks in Minneapolis have now decided 250 years later that Lee was foul traitor who is only regarded as something other than a foul traitor by scumbag racists from the scumbag racist South.
Those commentators have no imagination. Their little minds are locked in their little present. They were raised with the concept of this land as one "nation" implanted at birth. Their ancestors most likely arrived on these shores with the concept, belief, and notion that they had arrived in a singular country; an entity that had a bunch of things called states within it. Lee was born in and raised with an entirely different paradigm. Virginia was his homeland, his country. His ancestors arrived in Virginia before there even was a thing called "The United States".
There is a difference, an ocean of a difference, between an ingrained baseline of:
A. "The United States" is a collection of independent States working together for common good and purpose".
B. "The United States is one intact, integral, singular country with a bunch of little administrative subsections within it called states."
We are B. Lee was A.
Lee was born A. He was raised A. Lee loved the United States and served with honor, respect, and high regard in the United States Army. He saw the hope and promise of the United States. But, Lee's homeland was Virginia, the land he was born in, the land his father and grandfather were born in. Lees were rooted in Virginia soil before the United States, the compact, the union, the agreement, was even thought of.
Lee isn't my personal hero. My hero is Olaf Thorvaldson, Slayer of Small Blind Dragons. But, it bugs me when I read a stream of comments each trying outdo the others in calling out Lee as as a dirty loser of a traitor worshiped by the loser scumbag racist South (a South, ironically, many of these Starbucks commentators now wish would secede).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 11:55:09 GMT -5
Too many commentators have no imagination. I admit I was primed to go off on Lee yesterday because for two days I have reading a stream of comments in the Minneapolis Star Tribune comment section calling Lee a dirty traitor whose only statue should be a depiction of him swinging at the end of a rope. Not one comment, not five comments, hundreds of comments calling Lee a traitor more deserving of a rope than a statue. U.S. Grant, who fought him, and those on both sides of the line who knew him, regarded Lee as a decent man of honor and a remarkable leader. But a bunch of idiot young twerps fresh out of Starbucks in Minneapolis have now decided 250 years later that Lee was foul traitor who is only regarded as something other than a foul traitor by scumbag racists from the scumbag racist South. Those commentators have no imagination. Their little minds are locked in their little present. They were raised with the concept of this land as one "nation" implanted at birth. Their ancestors most likely arrived on these shores with the concept, belief, and notion that they had arrived in a singular country, entity, one that had a bunch of things called states within it. Lee was born in and raised with an entirely different paradigm. Virginia was his homeland, his country. His ancestors arrived in Virginia before there even was a thing called "The United States". There is a difference, an ocean of a difference, between an ingrained baseline of: A. "The United States" is a collection of independent States working together for common good and purpose". B. "The United States in one intact, integral country with a bunch of little administrative subsections within it called states." We are B. Lee was A. Lee was born A. He was raised A. Lee loved the United States and served with honor, respect, and high regard in the United States Army. He saw the hope and promise of the United States. But, Lee's homeland was Virginia, the land he was born in, the land his father and grandfather were born in. Lees were rooted in Virginia soil before the United States, the compact, the union, the agreement, was even thought of. Lee isn't my personal hero. My hero is Olaf Thorvaldson, Slayer of Small Blind Dragons. But, it bugs me when I read a stream of comments each trying outdo the others in calling out Lee as as a dirty loser of a traitor worshiped by the loser scumbag racist South (a South, ironically, many of these Starbucks commentators now wish would secede). "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." - L.P. Hartley You're right, too many judge those who lived there by today's standards.
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Post by Doug on Aug 18, 2017 11:59:45 GMT -5
A is the correct answer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:09:28 GMT -5
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Post by fauxmaha on Aug 18, 2017 12:28:11 GMT -5
In the age of Trump, many (eg California) are taking a fresh look at Lee's position.
History is never a straight line.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:35:00 GMT -5
In the age of Trump, many (eg California) are taking a fresh look at Lee's position. History is never a straight line. No, apparently, it's become a punch battle line.
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Post by epaul on Aug 18, 2017 12:47:28 GMT -5
I thought of you as soon as I wrote that. I darn near added you parenthetically (except for Doug). _________________________________________________________________________________________________ Marty, can you put the phrase "(except for Doug)" into a single keystroke command or menu click for convenience?
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