|
Post by amanajoe on May 21, 2018 11:58:40 GMT -5
And if you put out the perfectly logical law that says dad was indeed responsible for his firearms, and should have consequences, the NRA will start screaming. That to me is the problem. There should be laws around who can own and use guns, and those folks responsibilities. The NRA had made this into what it is, by convincing their members that any restriction is the government beginning to take away their guns. Sadly, Don, I do think your solution is worse than taking the guns away. I don't see how you can do that with any chance of success. You need a 100 % hit rate. I think the constitutionality of this is the problem. I've always said that an easy solution to gang problems is to blame the entire gang for the actions of the individual. That does work when 4 guys rob a bank and one shoots a guard, they all get the same charge. It doesn't work when a gang member does the crime in the name of gang but they aren't present. So will it work if I didn't have my guns safe enough and somebody used them without my permission? What is the definition of safe enough?
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 21, 2018 12:17:22 GMT -5
Oh, there's definitely something like that going on. Amougst kid culture there's consistent story line. This is the evil side of the whole adolescent high school drama scene. It's a well known fact that kid's moral judgement is not fully developed in high school age. They can't see the bigger picture of their place in life and the world. It's all still a game. And a gun, the higher power the more dramatic, is the magic ingredient in the evil side of the drama. And every freaking gun owning parent of a adolescent kid has a responsibility to society to remove the easy access of guns from their kids, or pay a heavy legal price to society if they don't.
|
|
|
Post by AlanC on May 21, 2018 13:16:02 GMT -5
Oh, there's definitely something like that going on. Amougst kid culture there's consistent story line. This is the evil side of the whole adolescent high school drama scene. It's a well known fact that kid's moral judgement is not fully developed in high school age. They can't see the bigger picture of their place in life and the world. It's all still a game. And a gun, the higher power the more dramatic, is the magic ingredient in the evil side of the drama. And every freaking gun owning parent of a adolescent kid has a responsibility to society to remove the easy access of guns from their kids, or pay a heavy legal price to society if they don't. I don't disagree with you. Remembering how incredibly stupid I was as a boy, I didn't have a handgun in my house till my son moved out. I would, however, question whether it is necessary to pass new laws to use against the owners of guns that are used to kill without their knowledge or consent. I would be shocked if the parents of the last two shooters don't get their asses sued off. I think they are in a world of shit: the one that gave the firearms back that the police confiscated and the latest where he took his dad's shotgun to school. What will a new law do that a hard ass atty working for the victim's families won't? I'm asking- not pontificating. What am I missing? Is there a way to determine the effect their children's rampage has had upon the parents? Am I wrong? Have they been left alone? Like I said; I would be shocked. Do you see any way in hell they don't live under a cloud of lawsuits for the rest of their lives?
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 21, 2018 14:40:09 GMT -5
Yeah. I have to agree with you on the most part. I'm pretty sure the parents of these kids have had their lives ruined. But still. Every car owner has to have insurance. When my phone was stolen, I was liable for the calls on it. And, though most parents I know would be devastated to have their kid be involved with this, I'm not sure every one would.
And to your point about civil action; it's much easier to pursue a civil action if a crime has officially been committed. Making unsafe and negligent storage of a firearm a crime will make the pursuit of civil damages easier. It sends a message. Does it solve the problem? Not in every case, I'm sure. But it puts a prospective gun owner on notice. There are consequences for negligence.
|
|
|
Post by AlanC on May 21, 2018 15:12:55 GMT -5
Yeah. I have to agree with you on the most part. I'm pretty sure the parents of these kids have had their lives ruined. But still. Every car owner has to have insurance. When my phone was stolen, I was liable for the calls on it. And, though most parents I know would be devastated to have their kid be involved with this, I'm not sure every one would. And to your point about civil action; it's much easier to pursue a civil action if a crime has officially been committed. Making unsafe and negligent storage of a firearm a crime will make the pursuit of civil damages easier. It sends a message. Does it solve the problem? Not in every case, I'm sure. But it puts a prospective gun owner on notice. There are consequences for negligence. As it should. I'm not advocating otherwise. I'm just wondering if adding a statutory violation to these parents is going to really do anything. What is one more shovelful of shit when your are living in a world of it? I'm not against restricting high capacity magazines or bump stocks or making it harder to get an "assault rifle" either. It just won't do one damn bit of good as far as protecting schools. Only a full scale, nation wide confiscation of firearms would even slow this trend down but I don't recommend it for the reasons I stated before. There are individuals who would see that as an attempt to subjugate them and would resist with great vigor. It's not so simple as just labeling them "bat shit crazy". They have their POV and although I don't share a lot of their opinions, they are not crazy - or violent- as long as they are left alone. Don't go poking that bear is my recommendation. If you go that route, don't forget to confiscate all the 3D printers also. Oh and you better build that wall as well. Better put one between us and Canada while you are at it or the smugglers will use that route also. I just don't see that half assed, band-aid attempts at "gun control" (whatever the %$%^%^ that is) will help. I thought of some other ideas to use on the kids but then I remembered how the more "they" warned us about pre-marital sex and the dangers of drugs just fueled our curiosity and determination to find out for ourselves. Looks like a long road....damn
|
|
|
Post by Russell Letson on May 21, 2018 15:50:45 GMT -5
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
Nobody said that amelioration is easy. You fix the problem that's right in front of you, and if you're wise and clever, you look for the side effects and unintended consequences.
When it's not raining, the roof doesn't leak, and when it is, it's too wet to go up and fix it.
(I'm not sure why that floated to the surface.)
On edit: An extra "iz" snuck into "amelioration." If it had an apostrophe in the middle, I'd suspect the post of being haunted by Doug.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 21, 2018 16:09:50 GMT -5
. . . ,I thought of some other ideas to use on the kids but then I remembered how the more "they" warned us about pre-marital sex and the dangers of drugs just fueled our curiosity and determination to find out for ourselves. Happiness is a warm gun, Mamma. When it's not raining, the roof doesn't leak, and when it is, it's too wet to go up and fix it. (I'm not sure why that floated to the surface.) Must be raining.
|
|
|
Post by jdd2 on May 21, 2018 18:05:39 GMT -5
As for what's gotten into "the kids" these days, shouldn't that be what's gotten into "the white males/kids"?
When was the last time some asian/black/hispanic kid shot up their school? And it seems like it's a white thing to say something like "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." Kind of like a motto.
And as for mottos, there's that state motto "Oro y Plata", a state with a spanish name, where simply speaking spanish can get you tapped by the border patrol.
|
|
|
Post by AlanC on May 21, 2018 18:41:18 GMT -5
OK, it’s white males. Now what do you suggest to make schools safer?
|
|
|
Post by james on May 21, 2018 19:24:57 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by AlanC on May 21, 2018 19:40:45 GMT -5
OK, white male mysoginisfs. How can we identifyi them for help with their pathologies? And to make sure they don’t have easy access to guns.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on May 21, 2018 19:49:23 GMT -5
As for what's gotten into "the kids" these days, shouldn't that be what's gotten into "the white males/kids"? Surely you're not suggesting that spending a generation laying centuries old racial guilt on them...telling them they are nothing more than tyrants-in-waiting...future instruments of The Patriarchy...their troubles trivialized because, after all, White Privilege...has backfired?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 20:11:34 GMT -5
Bruce, on the one hand, I see some logic in your post. On the other hand, there will still always be deviants or people who grow up completely amoral who will perpetrate similar crimes. And how many short stories, novels, and films (plus documentaries) have been written or made about violent mass killers who came out of disciplined (and sometimes dysfunctional) family environments? I don't think that, if a kid has tendencies that will make him grow up and bring guns to high school and shoot his classmates, taking away his video screens or spanking him is going to change his future. I'll agree with you that our culture of violence is a key factor in the way our young people experience the world. I don't know if the solution is all about discipline alone. There have to be moral examples made, as well, and the lesson taught that there is value in life. This is the main thing I like about foreign cinema—it is not focused on trivializing violence, killings, and such in the same blockbuster way that US cinema and culture does, nullifying the idea that life is valuable and precious. Maybe Mahatma Ghandi, the Kennedys, Martin Luther King, Yitzhak Rabin and Anwar Sadat, among others, had the right ideas. I still think that in a national opinion poll, citizens' rights and the 2nd Amendment would win out over preventing mass shootings. I know, it's cynical, but Marco Rubio is still going to accept campaign contributions from the NRA, too. I agree with all of that.
Holy smokes. This is a red-letter day! Thank you for being receptive. Noted and appreciated.
|
|