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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 13:08:19 GMT -5
I cam't stand Trump, but if this "impeachment" gambit works, stick a fork in the US. We are done.
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Post by TKennedy on Oct 23, 2019 13:59:36 GMT -5
The two big “accomplishments “ I was thinking of were the tax reform bill and the multiple conservative judicial appointments. I think those would have happened with any Republican in office. ISIS was going down when he took office and had nothing to do with any breakthrough change of plans relative to his presidency. His recent decisions on Syria may have actually been detrimental.
Not sure what else he has done of note except legitimize some of the more reprehensible traits of human behavior and create chaos without viable solutions.
The Republicans need a new candidate.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 14:10:35 GMT -5
The Republicans need a new candidate. Why? Worried Democrats can't beat Trump?
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 14:13:38 GMT -5
The two big “accomplishments “ I was thinking of were the tax reform bill and the multiple conservative judicial appointments. No, they wouldn't. Absolutely they wouldn't. The judicial appointment would have been Garland and I would bet every last dollar I have on that. The GIN is that the Republicans have a "litmus test" for their appointees -- as though the appointee should have no hint of an ideological leaning, and both parties choose this way. The reality is that the press advances this lie every time there is an impending appointment, and the Democrats are never held to this standard of "non-ideological" judges. And, in fact, the Democrats only and ever pick progressive judges with post-modern views of interpretation. And I'm not guessing at this. It is observably provable because every swing voter (may vote either way) who has been appointed to the Supreme Court in our lifetime has been appointed by a Republican. Meanwhile, it is the Democrat appointees who vote in lock step. Almost without exception. So much so, that any exception actually proves the rule by its rarity. And, no, no other Republican would have suggested, much less implemented a tax reform, much less a tax cut. And to get it passed, it took a president who finally didn't care that the national press was going to savage him. Incidentally, revenues are still going up. So is the deficit. And the press is still shouting the progressive line that it is the revenues and not the spending that are causing the deficit increases. It never changes.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 23, 2019 14:25:45 GMT -5
For once I believe Trump.
"Neither he (Taylor) or any other witness has provided testimony that the Ukrainians were aware that military aid was being withheld. You can’t have a quid pro quo with no quo.” Congressman John Ratcliffe @foxandfriends Where is the Whistleblower?"
I did it, but it doesn't matter because the Ukranians were unaware. Brilliant. Very high IQ!
The military aid that had been authorized by Congress was being withheld. Thanks for admitting to that particular crime.
Nobody ought to give a crap about the whistleblower, since everything the whistleblower said has now been admitted to.
He is scared shitless. He knows he is screwed.
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Post by AlanC on Oct 23, 2019 14:31:56 GMT -5
I cam't stand Trump, but if this "impeachment" gambit works, stick a fork in the US. We are done. What you talking 'bout Willis? Oh you mean secret, closed-door meetings that even members of Congress are not privy to? Cherry picking which details to leak to sycophant reporters? A mystery "whistleblower" only known to Adam Schiff? (we will just need to trust him on this one). Denying the President of the Unites States the opportunity to cross examine witnesses or face his accusers? In charge of the guy that gave us two plus years of soundbites declaring that he had solid, irrefutable evidence that the President was a traitor? This coming on the heels of a false charge of "collusion" which was engineered and orchestrated by top law enforcement, intelligence, & State Department officials of the Obama Administration and poly-parroted on the airwaves daily (and nightly) by the above referenced sycophants? That what you mean? Yeah, we are toast. My friends here, please note. You can hate Trump- I have dear family and friends who probably hate him worse than you. You can want him impeached and removed from office. I have no problem with that- you have the right to your opinion. But if you are OK with the process being done here by Pelosi and Shiff, please note that it is my humble opinion that you have let your hatred blind you to the damage being done by Nancy and Adam. Down here is Red State Country they are beginning to get furious. I marvel that the dynamic duo do not know the anger they are engendering just because Trump asked for a "favor". OMFG! They weren't too concerned when Biden bragged about cutting off the money so his boy could cash in. The hypocrisy on both sides is stunning but this closed-door star chamber shit is tearing at the fabric of our Republic doing far more damage than Dipshit did by requesting his "favor". Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? Don't bother to tell me to read it in the Post or the Times. If they published a report that said the sky was blue I wouldn't believe them. I certainly don't believe anything Schiff says. Somewhere there is a video of every lie he has told about collusion. It would probably run for an hour or more. As you can see I think this process stinks and I'm beginning to get a little pissed. Hold the damn vote and open up those *&*&^ doors, Adam. 'Cause you know what? Payback is a bitch. What they are doing now is going to be the new normal. It's guerrilla war from now on. So much for the "loyal opposition". It's on- whatever it takes from now on. Don't think the Republicans are not taking notes.
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Post by epaul on Oct 23, 2019 14:45:46 GMT -5
Well, if it all breaks up, I feel pretty good about hooking up with Canada. North Dakota and Manitoba are tight (we are probably tighter with Manitoba culturally and economically than we are with 40 of the remaining 49). What you got going for you down there, buddy? The ocean?
Maybe the big ole Mississippi will hold us together. We float a lot of grain down that way. And that is where the pipelines end. Come to think of it, we need you.
The Mississippi River Corridor. I like it!
Don't Point them shotguns due north, friend. Angle them off to east and west, if you must, but don't plunk your Mississippi buddies.
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Post by AlanC on Oct 23, 2019 15:03:25 GMT -5
Well, if it all breaks up, I feel pretty good about hooking up with Canada. North Dakota and Manitoba are tight (we are probably tighter with Manitoba culturally and economically than we are with 40 of the remaining 49). What you got going for you down there, buddy? The ocean? Maybe the big ole Mississippi will hold us together. We float a lot of grain down that way. And that is where the pipelines end. Come to think of it, we need you. The Mississippi River Corridor. I like it! Don't Point them shotguns due north, friend. Angle them off to east and west, if you must, but don't plunk your Mississippi buddies. Oh, not to worry. You an me gonna be like George Hazard and Orry Main.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Oct 23, 2019 15:09:18 GMT -5
“ Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? ”
Gathering evidence. By the way, Republicans are in the room also, and able to ask any questions they like. So far, it appears you guys just don’t put like the answers, so you all are having a hissy fit. When/if the impeachment trial actually happens, it will be in the open House and televised. Right now the committee process is happening, and no, Trump doesn’t have a right to confront anyone, at this point.
Which is why he appears to be in full panic mode.
Mike
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 15:18:52 GMT -5
“ Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? ” Gathering evidence. By the way, Republicans are in the room also, and able to ask any questions they like. So far, it appears you guys just don’t put like the answers, so you all are having a hissy fit. When/if the impeachment trial actually happens, it will be in the open House and televised. Right now the committee process is happening, and no, Trump doesn’t have a right to confront anyone, at this point. Which is why he appears to be in full panic mode. Mike As you're always fond of blurting- bullshit.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 15:29:38 GMT -5
The last time I witnessed the kind of disconnect I am seeing between the sources if information -- left and right -- was during the 90s when a just-born internet wreaked havoc with the national press news cycle and they didn't know what to do about it.
Every day I would watch the news tell me that there was nothing to the Clinton thing, or that the court was going to rule this way, or that this evidence was suspect. And every day I could see the brand new alternate press, now able to gather information via Drudge and other sources. And they would tell a completely different story.
Within a short period of time, the national press would have to correct itself because the results would be different from their predictions, but the results did line up with what the new media was predicting. No matter how hard the press sold a narrative to save Clinton's butt, the alternative press had an answer for why it was wrong.
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Post by AlanC on Oct 23, 2019 15:29:46 GMT -5
“ Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? ” Gathering evidence. By the way, Republicans are in the room also, and able to ask any questions they like. So far, it appears you guys just don’t put like the answers, so you all are having a hissy fit. When/if the impeachment trial actually happens, it will be in the open House and televised. Right now the committee process is happening, and no, Trump doesn’t have a right to confront anyone, at this point. Which is why he appears to be in full panic mode. Mike I don't think it's proceeding as fairly as you are describing it. I could give more specifics about why I don't like the process (i.e. my hissy fit) but tell me, oh wise one, since you know so much about it... why behind closed doors? So it's a committee? They are normally public. It's the "Peoples House". Why behind closed doors and the restriction to the so-called "evidence"? I know what I think and I'm sure it's 180 degrees from you so... why? Nothing being discussed is top secret or classified. What's the reason that even members of Congress don't have access? They have to read what Schiff leaks to his lapdogs to know what is happening.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 15:32:54 GMT -5
And more to the point -- you shouldn't be able to have it both ways. If it is okay to be secret, then secret it should be. But that is not, in fact, what is occurring. Schiff is "leaking" exactly what he wants the press to report.
It's also becoming increasingly evident that Schiff has been planning this as much as possible since August -- including having personal connections with all the "witnesses".
It was quite instructive when the press came out the day of the transcript release and lacked the nimbleness to change their narrative to reflect the fact that Trump had, in fact, released the transcript. Folks like Woodruff were doing their nightly interviews with "Trump concealing information" narrative still intact, when, in fact, we could all read the entire transcript.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 15:45:58 GMT -5
Don't think the Republicans are not taking notes. They would never be able to do this. Never. You have to have the national press to pull this off and they never will. The Clinton impeachment was an anomaly caused by the new internet age. The press has caught up and then some. Ask Tulsi Gabbard just how "caught up" they are. Additionally, the Clinton impeachment was that -- an impeachment. We're still waiting to see if this becomes one, or if the desired outcome of either a resigned Trump, or a madly riled Democrat base for 2020 happens. It the Democrats win this without even an impeachment, the Republicans are finished.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 23, 2019 15:50:49 GMT -5
I cam't stand Trump, but if this "impeachment" gambit works, stick a fork in the US. We are done. What you talking 'bout Willis? Oh you mean secret, closed-door meetings that even members of Congress are not privy to? Cherry picking which details to leak to sycophant reporters? A mystery "whistleblower" only known to Adam Schiff? (we will just need to trust him on this one). Denying the President of the Unites States the opportunity to cross examine witnesses or face his accusers? In charge of the guy that gave us two plus years of soundbites declaring that he had solid, irrefutable evidence that the President was a traitor? This coming on the heels of a false charge of "collusion" which was engineered and orchestrated by top law enforcement, intelligence, & State Department officials of the Obama Administration and poly-parroted on the airwaves daily (and nightly) by the above referenced sycophants? That what you mean? Committee meetings on sensitive matters being closed to committee members only is SOP. The whistleblower followed Federal Law and is protected by that same law. Also, a non-factor, since everything he or she said has turned out to be acknowledged by POTUS and his people. I believe that the President can answer questions posed by Congress anytime he like. The suggestion that this impeachment is in anyway not Kosher? Please how this impeachment process is any different than Bill Clinton not being able to cross-examine Linda Tripp?
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 16:01:03 GMT -5
What you talking 'bout Willis? Oh you mean secret, closed-door meetings that even members of Congress are not privy to? Cherry picking which details to leak to sycophant reporters? A mystery "whistleblower" only known to Adam Schiff? (we will just need to trust him on this one). Denying the President of the Unites States the opportunity to cross examine witnesses or face his accusers? In charge of the guy that gave us two plus years of soundbites declaring that he had solid, irrefutable evidence that the President was a traitor? This coming on the heels of a false charge of "collusion" which was engineered and orchestrated by top law enforcement, intelligence, & State Department officials of the Obama Administration and poly-parroted on the airwaves daily (and nightly) by the above referenced sycophants? That what you mean? Committee meetings on sensitive matters being closed to committee members only is SOP. The whistleblower followed Federal Law and is protected by that same law. Also, a non-factor, since everything he or she said has turned out to be acknowledged by POTUS and his people. I believe that the President can answer questions posed by Congress anytime he like. The suggestion that this impeachment is in anyway not Kosher? Please how this impeachment process is any different than Bill Clinton not being able to cross-examine Linda Tripp? "The impeachment of Bill Clinton was initiated on October 8, 1998, when the United States House of Representatives voted to commence impeachment proceedings against Bill Clinton, 42nd president of the United States, for "high crimes and misdemeanors", which were subsequently detailed in two articles of impeachment." So when are the Democrats going to grow some stones and vote to initiate impeachment proceedings? That's when it stops being a partisan kangaroo court and achieves kosher-ness. Or do they just want to keep up this useless show?
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Oct 23, 2019 16:04:06 GMT -5
“Oh wise one”
Alan, you need to work on your genuflection.
Mike
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Post by lar on Oct 23, 2019 16:06:56 GMT -5
“ Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? ” Gathering evidence. By the way, Republicans are in the room also, and able to ask any questions they like. So far, it appears you guys just don’t put like the answers, so you all are having a hissy fit. When/if the impeachment trial actually happens, it will be in the open House and televised. Right now the committee process is happening, and no, Trump doesn’t have a right to confront anyone, at this point. Which is why he appears to be in full panic mode. Mike Whoa! Settle down guys! As I understand the constitution the house is empowered to impeach and they can do it by whatever rules they decide to adopt. There's no requirement that it be handled like a court trial and normal rules of evidence aren't required either. I'm not concerned about whether there was a vote to open an impeachment inquiry or not. There doesn't seem to be a requirement to do so and aside from that this is the Democrats show because they have a majority. The result of a vote would have been a foregone conclusion. It just doesn't matter. It's been pointed out numerous times that an impeachment inquiry is not a trial. It's similar to the indictment process. When a grand jury sits there is no defense attorney, no cross-examination, no rebuttal, etc. The articles of impeachment that result from the inquiry are essentially an indictment. The senate will hold the trial and they can do it according to whatever rules they decide to adopt. I'll admit to being deeply disappointed that the house committees decided to take testimony ("depositions" according to the Democrats. Would a disinterested bystander look at this as a railroad job? Possibly. The reason given for the closed doors is that they don't want witnesses consulting each other about their testimony. I heard a Democratic congressman say that at least one of the committees thinks that's already happened. In my opinion the Democrats should have handled this differently. I acknowledge their right to begin the impeachment inquiry. But the lack of transparency looks bad. Given the fact that the media always seems to know what was said soon after everyone is done testifying it would seem that the only reason for the closed door sessions is to control what's leaked to the press. That seems like dirty pool to me. I'm also not too worried about the hearsay testimony. First, this isn't a court of law and the rules don't apply. To the extent that rules of evidence and due process are applied it will happen in the senate trial. Since the senate is only required to operate by the rules they set it's not a foregone conclusion that normal rules or procedures will be used. I think Trump has much less to worry about in the senate trial because Republicans hold the majority there and he's got Mitch McConnell to control things. Today I looked back at all, or at least a good part, of what's happened since Trump won the Republican nomination. All that has happened, on both sides, since that time seems to have led to where we are now. That disgusts me. I don't think we're getting the government we're paying for.
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Post by david on Oct 23, 2019 16:24:58 GMT -5
I cam't stand Trump, but if this "impeachment" gambit works, stick a fork in the US. We are done. What you talking 'bout Willis? Oh you mean secret, closed-door meetings that even members of Congress are not privy to? Cherry picking which details to leak to sycophant reporters? A mystery "whistleblower" only known to Adam Schiff? (we will just need to trust him on this one). Denying the President of the Unites States the opportunity to cross examine witnesses or face his accusers? In charge of the guy that gave us two plus years of soundbites declaring that he had solid, irrefutable evidence that the President was a traitor? This coming on the heels of a false charge of "collusion" which was engineered and orchestrated by top law enforcement, intelligence, & State Department officials of the Obama Administration and poly-parroted on the airwaves daily (and nightly) by the above referenced sycophants? That what you mean? Yeah, we are toast. My friends here, please note. You can hate Trump- I have dear family and friends who probably hate him worse than you. You can want him impeached and removed from office. I have no problem with that- you have the right to your opinion. But if you are OK with the process being done here by Pelosi and Shiff, please note that it is my humble opinion that you have let your hatred blind you to the damage being done by Nancy and Adam. Down here is Red State Country they are beginning to get furious. I marvel that the dynamic duo do not know the anger they are engendering just because Trump asked for a "favor". OMFG! They weren't too concerned when Biden bragged about cutting off the money so his boy could cash in. The hypocrisy on both sides is stunning but this closed-door star chamber shit is tearing at the fabric of our Republic doing far more damage than Dipshit did by requesting his "favor". Hold the damn vote and get it out in the open! WTFH are they doing behind those closed doors? Don't bother to tell me to read it in the Post or the Times. If they published a report that said the sky was blue I wouldn't believe them. I certainly don't believe anything Schiff says. Somewhere there is a video of every lie he has told about collusion. It would probably run for an hour or more. As you can see I think this process stinks and I'm beginning to get a little pissed. Hold the damn vote and open up those *&*&^ doors, Adam. 'Cause you know what? Payback is a bitch. What they are doing now is going to be the new normal. It's guerrilla war from now on. So much for the "loyal opposition". It's on- whatever it takes from now on. Don't think the Republicans are not taking notes. Alan, Were you upset in 2016 when Mitch McConnel held a closed-door meeting with Republicans sitting on the Senate Judiciary Committee wherein all 11 GOP panel members subsequently signed a letter pledging not to hold hearings on any Supreme Court replacement for Scalia until a new president is inaugurated? Did the folks in your red state recommend "hold the vote" at that point?
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Post by jdd2 on Oct 23, 2019 16:59:26 GMT -5
...As I understand the constitution the house is empowered to impeach and they can do it by whatever rules they decide to adopt. There's no requirement that it be handled like a court trial and normal rules of evidence aren't required either. I'm not concerned about whether there was a vote to open an impeachment inquiry or not. There doesn't seem to be a requirement to do so and aside from that this is the Democrats show because they have a majority. The result of a vote would have been a foregone conclusion. It just doesn't matter. It's been pointed out numerous times that an impeachment inquiry is not a trial. It's similar to the indictment process. When a grand jury sits there is no defense attorney, no cross-examination, no rebuttal, etc. The articles of impeachment that result from the inquiry are essentially an indictment. The senate will hold the trial and they can do it according to whatever rules they decide to adopt. ... All correct, thanks. And on that last thing, it's John Roberts who will preside.
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