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Post by millring on Feb 8, 2020 14:59:01 GMT -5
Touchy business to take sides in, John, but Russell's use of "meaning" accounts for both you and him. Yours accounts only for yourself. Don't know how else to put it. It would if he hadn't placed it in direct contradiction to my view. I say we all look at evidence available to us and develop our world views -- some have world views that include the supernatural and others develop world views that are strictly materialist. Russell appears to be saying (in his last paragraph) that I have a world view that includes the supernatural, but he looks at the evidence and has decided I am wrong. And my comment following was me saying that's a real flipping of the way things used to be. Russell was raised in a world that defaulted toward the supernatural. That he's still smarting over that is understandable. That he's flipped the dogmatism to his side is also understandable. It's also understandable that it's a zero-sum game. We can both be wrong, but we can't both be right. Tolerance and love allows us to get along anyway.
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Post by millring on Feb 8, 2020 15:15:30 GMT -5
One of my role models might be the apostle Thomas Thomas is perhaps my favorite apostle and a bit of an obsession of mine of late.
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 8, 2020 15:27:38 GMT -5
John, I'm not smarting (though I'm damn smart). In fact, the psychic discomfort vanished utterly and without regret the moment I decided to not accept the guilt that was on offer from the Church and a large segment of society at large. I honestly do not think about it much except when challenged by those who are sure that I'm wrong because I don't accept their evidence-set and am in need of hearing the good news. Again. (I find evangelism bad manners and missionary work instrusive.)
I will cop to getting quite emphatic in stating my views and the reasoning behind them--chalk that up to decades of fending off the thoughts and prayers of people who seem to think that if I just, like, opened my heart I would repent my apostasy and return to the fold. Arrogant and stubborn of me? Quite likely. If the paleo-Catholics are right, I'm in for a hell of a surprise when I die, but I'm, um, damned if I can see my way around what I've figured out about me and the world. Others are absolutely entitled to differ. My mother, bless her, remained faithful to the end, and I think it brought her comfort. But she also (eventually) let me remain myself. We just never talked religion. Worked for us.
For me, it's always personal, until it becomes a matter of public policy--my materialism is a private matter, but my secularism is explicitly a matter of public political concern. A public official who is incapable of separating his sectarian metaphysical beliefs and practices from his public policies and activities threatens the separation of church and state that is all that separates us from theocracies and sectarian conflict. And, like Mrs. Slocombe, I am unanimous in that.
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Post by millring on Feb 8, 2020 15:32:14 GMT -5
To the extent that I want and expect a secular government, we agree. But I expect it to be a democratic secularism. And to the extent my "religious" views inform my votes toward policies and politicians, they should not be disqualified on that basis. No law-abiding coalition should be disenfranchised. If a particularly distasteful one ascends to power, well, that's the hell of democracy, isn't it? But if there is a strength in democracy it lies in the hope that the more esoteric the belief (system), the less likely it will be to form such a powerful coalition.
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Post by millring on Feb 8, 2020 15:40:07 GMT -5
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Post by coachdoc on Feb 8, 2020 18:39:18 GMT -5
Aren't they done yet?
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 8, 2020 19:04:56 GMT -5
Doc, Trump's still President. It's not over yet and probably won't be for another 5 years. Don't expect any legislation. The Democrats are in this up to their noses and can't let it go because they have too much to lose.
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Post by epaul on Feb 8, 2020 19:09:28 GMT -5
Did they get him yet?
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Post by Cornflake on Feb 8, 2020 19:25:49 GMT -5
Russell, I think you're wrong about God but in an entirely admirable way.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 8, 2020 19:28:36 GMT -5
No but they have his bank records, Hunter you mean, right?
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