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Post by billhammond on Mar 4, 2020 19:28:48 GMT -5
One of the best received guitars I built by good players including Tim Sparks and Phil Heywood was one with a Birds eye Maple outer lam and a Rosewood inner lam. It had a Maple back. Lutz top. Wow, this one was news to me -- do you have any photos and/or sound clips? |
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Post by TKennedy on Mar 4, 2020 20:18:47 GMT -5
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Post by david on Mar 4, 2020 23:08:24 GMT -5
It is two thin pieces of side wood laminated together. You can use the same or different species. Total thickness usually comes out around 0.110”. For Mahogany I use the same wood for both. Been done in the classical world for quite a while. It significantly stiffens the sides and alters the vibration pattern of the top. They are almost always louder and to me have a little edge or sparkle on the tone that has been very well received by most folks that play them. The laminating glue makes a difference I think. I use Unibond 800 that dries hard like glass. I have been a little less impressed on their effect on an all Rosewood guitars. Louder but the tonal change has been less striking. One of the best received guitars I built by good players including Tim Sparks and Phil Heywood was one with a Birds eye Maple outer lam and a Rosewood inner lam. It had a Maple back. Lutz top. I am starting one soon to try a Rosewood outer lam and Maple inner with a Rosewood back. That is impressive. I have heard double topped classicals and some graphite sandwiched topped classicals at some guitar makers exhibitions. The few that I heard had lost some bass tones, but the highs were loud and clear. I had no idea that it was being done on the sides and/or that steel string makers were venturing into this realm. Sorry for being pedantic, but why not just make the sides thicker or with denser wood? |
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Post by TKennedy on Mar 4, 2020 23:28:04 GMT -5
It would really be tough to bend sides at 0.110. The double sides are great for figured wood or tight cutaways too as it is a lot safer to bend at .050-.060 and you can bend both sides at the same time. One builder of note in AU is adding struts that have detachable weights to add mass to the sides. The most extreme example I saw was a classical build in the 70's that was brought in for repair and had double sides with a layer of lead mesh between them. (I x-rayed it ) It was LOUD but bad tone. (Adding a lead liner beneath the kerfed lining and filling the neck with lead didn't help much either  |
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Post by howard lee on Mar 4, 2020 23:57:59 GMT -5
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Post by jdd2 on Mar 5, 2020 6:32:18 GMT -5
Didn't ramirez or someone spanish add a spruce lam/layer to the inner sides?
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Post by theevan on Mar 5, 2020 8:30:36 GMT -5
Didn't ramirez or someone spanish add a spruce lam/layer to the inner sides? Yeah, doubled sides have been a thing in the classical world for a good long while. I'm not sure if Ramirez started it back in the mid-60s, or if they just popularized it. Probably the latter. Nylon strings generate much less energy than steel. The thought is that doubling the sides limits vibrational loss, keeping more of it in the top. Not sure that is its true effect. It may be more a matter of tone and focus. "Sparkle", as Terry says. The higher frequencies are more subject to loss than bass, and stiffened sides helps limit that loss. |
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Post by theevan on Mar 5, 2020 8:31:56 GMT -5
It would really be tough to bend sides at 0.110. The double sides are great for figured wood or tight cutaways too as it is a lot safer to bend at .050-.060 and you can bend both sides at the same time. One builder of note in AU is adding struts that have detachable weights to add mass to the sides. The most extreme example I saw was a classical build in the 70's that was brought in for repair and had double sides with a layer of lead mesh between them. (I x-rayed it ) It was LOUD but bad tone. (Adding a lead liner beneath the kerfed lining and filling the neck with lead didn't help much either That is grade AAA nuts! |
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Post by drlj on Mar 5, 2020 8:36:19 GMT -5
A lead lined guitar would keep Superman from looking through it and make it a good place to hide kryptonite.
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Post by TKennedy on Mar 5, 2020 9:52:48 GMT -5
The most extreme example I saw was a classical build in the 70's that was brought in for repair and had double sides with a layer of lead mesh between them. (I x-rayed it ) It was LOUD but bad tone. (Adding a lead liner beneath the kerfed lining and filling the neck with lead didn't help much either That is grade AAA nuts! It was made in the 70's by a New England luthier named Toliver. The top was very lightly braced below the soundhole but the upper bout braces had a lead core and were massive, the rims had a lead perimeter, and lead mesh between the sides, and the neck had a lead core. The whole idea was to make the lower bout the only vibrating part of the guitar. When I did a search for his name the only thing that came up was the name of a now famous inlay artist who worked for him as a young adult. I wrote him and he wrote back "call me". When we talked he explained that the guy was a scam artist and would promote his guitars, take money for down payment, build the instrument and sell it to someone else. Most of the builds he was familiar with he did himself and when he found out about the scamming he quit and went back to the guy's house at night and stole the completed guitars and delivered them to the rightful owners. Quite a story!!! Here are some X-rays that show the lead lining in the body and neck and if you look closely you can see the screen-like mesh between the sides. It weighed more than a Gibson Mastertone. I had a good classical player play it and it was really loud but the tone was nothing to write home about.  Toilver Guitar I by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr  Toliver Guitar II by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr  Toliver Guitar III copy by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr  IMG_6130 by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr |
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Post by RickW on Mar 5, 2020 11:49:53 GMT -5
Weren’t the classical double sides actual two pieces of wood with something in between, something called nomex, I think?
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Post by millring on Mar 5, 2020 11:52:10 GMT -5
I think you are confusing this with Trump's immigration policy. |
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Post by theevan on Mar 5, 2020 12:00:25 GMT -5
Weren’t the classical double sides actual two pieces of wood with something in between, something called nomex, I think? Nah. That's for the tops. The sides are simply doubled wood, sometimes the same variety, sometimes different. |
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Post by jdd2 on Mar 5, 2020 16:45:47 GMT -5
Weren’t the classical double sides actual two pieces of wood with something in between, something called nomex, I think? Nah. That's for the tops. ... Known as sandwich or double tops. |
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