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Post by Marshall on Nov 28, 2022 13:46:12 GMT -5
I played for years at Nova Wine Bar in Hudson, Wis., whose tough-as-nails owner/manager told me of how she was constantly harassed by PROs, even calls to her home phone. Her reply to those guys was "No, I'm not paying, take me to court," which none of them ever did, which I found fascinating on multiple levels. There was a performance venue in Palatine, Mac's on Slade, where Mac refused to pay the fees. He'd run out the back door when a PRO would show up at the front door. He'd hangup on phone calls. Or wouldn't answer. That worked for 2 or 3 years. Then he closed the place. But it was other financial concerns, not the Pros hounding him that made he give up. But now the place is reopened as Madcat's. It's a cool place. I have no idea what the new owner's position is on Pros. There's live music there 5 nights a week. I hit the Tuesday open mic about once a month. I had a 3 hr gig there on a Thursday about a month ago.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 28, 2022 14:33:15 GMT -5
My impression is that PROs operate on a territorial model, not unlike route sales, which could result in differences in enforcement and aggressive tactics. I've Googled around and can't find exactly how they structure the signup-and-enforcement end of the business.
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 28, 2022 16:46:30 GMT -5
And if I recall, it was about that same time that the IRS got the notion that tightening up the accounting rules for venues would guarantee them several tens of dollars in tax revenue by forcing W2s on any musician who made more than $600 in a year at that particular venue. Thus folks could book my wife 3 times and then book me 3 times without incurring the wrath of the Federal government. At that point playing music became much more of a PITA than it was worth. Rules for issuing 1099s have not changed in decades, and apply to any payments made by a business entity, estate or trust for services to individuals, partnerships and LLCs exceeding a total of $600 per year. And they apply to any payment by a business entity, estate or trust to an attorney, regardless of amount or business organization. Penalties for failure of the business to file 1099s is now $280 per form not filed (up from $50 last year). In 26 years of public accounting, assisting businesses in filing 1099s, I never had the IRS assess penalties for failure to file. Never. Technically a business can't deduct payments for services if they did not issue a 1099, but once again I never had the IRS question a taxpayer regarding 1099 filings. I did deal with taxpayers who did not report all of the income reported to them on a 1099. If you are like any musician/performer I have ever worked with, you would not have earned significant amounts of revenue and true verifiable expenses likely offset any revenue; ergo no taxable income. If it's a hobby (as it would be for anyone with a primary source of income) a loss would not be deductible, but I fail to see how a piece of paper inhibits performance for money. I fail to see any reason why matching payments to taxpayers is an issue, unless for some reason that person thinks that the rules that apply to wage earners shouldn't apply to them. So what I'm hearing you say is that for a small time musician, particularly one with another bigger income, it's all a wash anyways. That's what I figured. And keeping track of who gets paid this time is still a headache. So no harm, no foul.
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Post by John B on Nov 28, 2022 18:38:13 GMT -5
Rules for issuing 1099s have not changed in decades, and apply to any payments made by a business entity, estate or trust for services to individuals, partnerships and LLCs exceeding a total of $600 per year. And they apply to any payment by a business entity, estate or trust to an attorney, regardless of amount or business organization. Penalties for failure of the business to file 1099s is now $280 per form not filed (up from $50 last year). In 26 years of public accounting, assisting businesses in filing 1099s, I never had the IRS assess penalties for failure to file. Never. Technically a business can't deduct payments for services if they did not issue a 1099, but once again I never had the IRS question a taxpayer regarding 1099 filings. I did deal with taxpayers who did not report all of the income reported to them on a 1099. If you are like any musician/performer I have ever worked with, you would not have earned significant amounts of revenue and true verifiable expenses likely offset any revenue; ergo no taxable income. If it's a hobby (as it would be for anyone with a primary source of income) a loss would not be deductible, but I fail to see how a piece of paper inhibits performance for money. I fail to see any reason why matching payments to taxpayers is an issue, unless for some reason that person thinks that the rules that apply to wage earners shouldn't apply to them. So what I'm hearing you say is that for a small time musician, particularly one with another bigger income, it's all a wash anyways. That's what I figured. And keeping track of who gets paid this time is still a headache. So no harm, no foul. You could have always taken my approach and have zero drive, talent or ambition (the "lazy ass" approach). Results in the same amount of reportable earnings (and not much else).
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Post by amanajoe on Nov 28, 2022 18:44:18 GMT -5
There were several small spots here that all had the same story. They called them the ASCAP/BMI mafia. They threatened and harassed, they all decided to not have music anymore. When one stopped the monthly shows, the same guys said that they needed a license for the TV’s in the place (which is a lie, it is covered by the broadcaster that they paid for business broadcast rights and is even spelled out on ASCAP’s website). This kind of behavior is supposedly against the “extensive” training that they provide reps. I’d believe it if it was just one guy, if I hadn’t heard it so many times before.
I’ve had the discussion many times with venue owners. I’ve always told them it was like dealing with anyone, never take the first price, negotiate, they know they don’t have that much of a position of strength, the venue can just stop performance or require originals only that aren’t under the PROs control.
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Post by RickW on Nov 28, 2022 22:20:58 GMT -5
I was under the impression that the “collectors” were on commission, hence the overly aggressive behavior. Also, it’s often not the artist that’s getting paid, it’s whomever owns the rights to the song, and those are often larger corporations who buy intellectual property. I think McCartney finally got the Beatles catalog back; he’d been on the verge of acquiring it years ago when Michael Jackson swooped in and bought it.
I think artists have gotten smarter now about owning their own rights, but signing big recording deals, the companies have you over a barrel.
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