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Post by Marshall on Oct 5, 2023 8:44:33 GMT -5
Good luck fitting all that on your Prius bumper sticker!! And slave labor to work the land.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Oct 5, 2023 12:27:46 GMT -5
The saying used to be "we need cheap labor." Now we just need labor. We have aged ourselves out of any reasonable hope to operate and produce what needs to be operated and produced. I work every day with folks who can barely speak English. I'm astounded at how they outwork me. Mexican immigrants operate every egg packing plant in the county, do most of the roofing and drywall, all the masonry work. We're only a town of 15,000 but the apartments and subdivisions I deliver mail to are almost exclusively Indian (the halls smell wonderfully of curry). Meanwhile the white American population is busting the seams of the retirement and nursing homes. They're all jammed to capacity and building more barns to store the old and in the way. 50 years of recreational sex and no reproduction is coming home to roost. We not only don't have a generation of producers, thinkers, and workers, we have a population ruled by the mental derangement caused by sex as mere recreation. I am probably deranged but I'm not trying to rule anyone. It's a hard life, Alan.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Oct 5, 2023 20:14:34 GMT -5
Anyone who says they have solutions for intractable problems like immigration, mental illness, homelessness, or substance abuse is just blowing smoke up their own ass.
Mike
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Post by RickW on Oct 6, 2023 11:41:17 GMT -5
It’s an unfortunate truth that the lifestyle we’ve been able to lead has been built on endless growth. Capitalism requires it, and it as provided a level of wealth and comfort for the average westerner that most of mankind over the ages could only dream of. But when populations stop growing, so does growth — keep needing new bodies in greater number to keep the curve arcing upwards.
I honestly don’t know if we can come up with a balanced, better system. Humans seem to operate best on a risk/reward system. But when you need endless growth, you need the endless bodies, and the growing consumption. And those bodies need to come from somewhere. The US certainly needs a better method of managing it. We’re lucky in Canada, that we don’t share a border with any poverty stricken areas. (Though the Dakotas, Montana and Minnesota have their shady bits….)
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Post by Marshall on Oct 6, 2023 13:04:06 GMT -5
The saying used to be "we need cheap labor." Now we just need labor. We have aged ourselves out of any reasonable hope to operate and produce what needs to be operated and produced. I work every day with folks who can barely speak English. I'm astounded at how they outwork me. Mexican immigrants operate every egg packing plant in the county, do most of the roofing and drywall, all the masonry work. We're only a town of 15,000 but the apartments and subdivisions I deliver mail to are almost exclusively Indian (the halls smell wonderfully of curry). Meanwhile the white American population is busting the seams of the retirement and nursing homes. They're all jammed to capacity and building more barns to store the old and in the way. 50 years of recreational sex and no reproduction is coming home to roost. We not only don't have a generation of producers, thinkers, and workers, we have a population ruled by the mental derangement caused by sex as mere recreation. Cheery little post you got there.
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 6, 2023 13:10:42 GMT -5
Rick, what requires growth is more likely greed (or, to put it less emotively, acquisitiveness or demand-for-material-comfort) rather than capitalism, which I take to be a body of means rather than an end. And population growth is where human reproductive behavior meets its physical-economic environment (and their limits).
Now, greedy-needy people with lots of power have found the machineries of "capitalism" very useful. But how is greed/need being met in nominally non-capitalist societies? Is China's "state capitalism" actually a version of capitalism? Can a command economy--or its crony version, or its incarnation in fascist states, or in kleptocracies--be usefully be lumped with what the West calls capitalism?
I suspect the problem is how to run a stable, maintainable economy that still accommodates freedom of action and a just allocation of resources. Otherwise, we're in the same population-finite resources trap as any other species.
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Post by theevan on Oct 6, 2023 13:26:27 GMT -5
Just allocation of resources? Hmmmm.
Paging Adam Smith.
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Post by howard lee on Oct 6, 2023 13:42:14 GMT -5
Just allocation of resources? Hmmmm. Paging Adam Smith.
You rang?
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Post by theevan on Oct 6, 2023 13:55:50 GMT -5
Seems Adam should have pushed away from the table more often...
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Oct 6, 2023 14:18:50 GMT -5
It’s an unfortunate truth that the lifestyle we’ve been able to lead has been built on endless growth. Capitalism requires it, and it as provided a level of wealth and comfort for the average westerner that most of mankind over the ages could only dream of. But when populations stop growing, so does growth — keep needing new bodies in greater number to keep the curve arcing upwards. I honestly don’t know if we can come up with a balanced, better system. Humans seem to operate best on a risk/reward system. But when you need endless growth, you need the endless bodies, and the growing consumption. And those bodies need to come from somewhere. The US certainly needs a better method of managing it. We’re lucky in Canada, that we don’t share a border with any poverty stricken areas. (Though the Dakotas, Montana and Minnesota have their shady bits….) Not sure you need more people to keep the economy going if you use the Apple model where every year or so you convince the same people that is essential to buy an expensive "upgrade" to a product that only minimally improves on the previous version.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Oct 6, 2023 14:25:26 GMT -5
Seems Adam should have pushed away from the table more often... As someone with long experience as a fat man, I have always hoped that didn't negate my intellect or worth as a person.
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Post by theevan on Oct 6, 2023 16:17:55 GMT -5
Seems Adam should have pushed away from the table more often... As someone with long experience as a fat man, I have always hoped that didn't negate my intellect or worth as a person. Of course it does. We live in Superficial World. In Tanzania carrying weight means you are rich and important. When Tim successfully lost weight, or friends there sympathized with him. FunnyWorld, no?,
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Post by RickW on Oct 6, 2023 16:55:25 GMT -5
As someone with long experience as a fat man, I have always hoped that didn't negate my intellect or worth as a person. Of course it does. We live in Superficial World. In Tanzania carrying weight means you are rich and important. When Tim successfully lost weight, or friends there sympathized with him. FunnyWorld, no?, Exactly. Interesting truth that in most of history, when getting enough to eat was work enough, having some extra weight was considered a sign of prosperity and goodness. It’s only in our weird world do people get rewarded for starving themselves.
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Post by epaul on Oct 6, 2023 17:56:45 GMT -5
In addition to a whole bunch of other stuff, my hospital's online "MyChart" lists the doctor's personal notes concerning my visit. I saw a new doctor recently for something and in his post-visit notes I read the following: Patient appears well-nourished.
I like that doctor.
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Post by epaul on Oct 6, 2023 18:02:36 GMT -5
In another visit (to a different doctor), the doc's personal notes began "The patient presents with his wife today. He has no complaints."
I immediately read that to Charlene and said, "Forget the parade candy words, that's it in a nutshell. I have no complaints, honey!"
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Post by millring on Oct 7, 2023 4:56:53 GMT -5
It’s an unfortunate truth that the lifestyle we’ve been able to lead has been built on endless growth. Capitalism requires it, and it as provided a level of wealth and comfort for the average westerner that most of mankind over the ages could only dream of. But when populations stop growing, so does growth — keep needing new bodies in greater number to keep the curve arcing upwards. I honestly don’t know if we can come up with a balanced, better system. Humans seem to operate best on a risk/reward system. But when you need endless growth, you need the endless bodies, and the growing consumption. And those bodies need to come from somewhere. The US certainly needs a better method of managing it. We’re lucky in Canada, that we don’t share a border with any poverty stricken areas. (Though the Dakotas, Montana and Minnesota have their shady bits….) I don't think it's capitalism that requires growth. I'm pretty sure it's survival that requires it. Other than that, I agree with you. We've given up on reigning in our appetites via religion. We're now in the uncharted waters of letting them run their course and I think we're in for yet another round of despotism in the name of controlling them.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 7, 2023 8:32:04 GMT -5
I will say the encouraging thing is, there are still thousands (millions?) of people in the world who want a piece of the life we have in America. We're doing something right. (I don't see masses of people trying to get into China or Russia). And we've got a lot of wide open spaces, so there's room to grow.
I'm not saying the present immigration lack-of-system is preferred or even workable. But we ought to be able to come up with a better solution. Except our political combativeness precludes any meaningful compromise solution, I'm afraid.
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Post by millring on Oct 8, 2023 7:01:28 GMT -5
Except our political combativeness precludes any meaningful compromise solution, I'm afraid. Part of being able to compromise effectively is to first accept that compromise may be the thing that got us here and that not every solution is found in the middle. Compromise may be necessary, but it isn't always the right thing to do. The United States we grew up in is a thing of the past. It would be nice to believe that, like Beatles music, the best of the past will be recognized, honored, and utilized by the population of the future. But that's really not what history teaches us. At least, I don't think it is.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 8, 2023 7:38:39 GMT -5
IN 1965 Lyndon Johnson got the Immigration Act signed.
Theodore White, who lived to see the early consequences of the 1965 Immigration Act, called it "noble, revolutionary--and probably the most thoughtless of the many acts of the Great Society." In his memoirs, LBJ does not even mention the Immigration Act of 1965. On October 3, 1965, at the foot of the Statue of Liberty, Lyndon Johnson signed the Immigration Act of 1965. We live today with its consequences. But most Americans have never reconciled themselves to it, and many have actively resisted.
Abolish country-specific discriminatory quotas
We must do something about our immigration laws. Two-thirds of the total immigration quota goes under that law, to people who never use all their quota.
Pres. Roosevelt, with a good Dutch name, proposed the immigration law be changed. Truman, with a good English name, proposed the law be changed.
Pres. Eisenhower, with a good German name, proposed the law be changed.
Pres. Kennedy, with a good Irish name, proposed that the law be changed.
And now a President, L Johnson, with an English name, and with an Irish name, and with German and Scottish and French forebears, proposes this law be changed.
We want to abolish those discriminatory quotas gradually over a 5-year period and raise the overall l 9,000, or 1/80th of 1 percent of our work force. This would permit families to unite which have too long been broken.
We stand for a compassionate nation, not a callous nation. We stand for uniting our country instead of dividing it.
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Post by Marshall on Oct 8, 2023 7:42:18 GMT -5
That's kinda confusing. But prior to LBJ there were quotas from different countries.
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