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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 19, 2024 10:50:45 GMT -5
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Post by dradtke on Feb 19, 2024 11:23:20 GMT -5
If you get one as a present in December, is it a Christmas EV?
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Post by david on Feb 19, 2024 12:48:47 GMT -5
That is unfortunate.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 19, 2024 21:38:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it in this country. If Chevron gets overturned in June, it will cancel EPA's authority to regulate CO2 emissions (and maybe a lot of other things). A big part of that falling will be eliminating the government pushed adoption of EVs and letting automakers get back to selling real, technically better, traditional internal combustion engines.
That will leave Tesla as the only one at risk of being impacted by China's actions. And given that they've managed to scam $9 billion from other manufacturers in the EPA mandated regulatory scheme to convert the entire country to EVs, can't say I feel sorry for them.
Of course, maybe Chevron won't fall in June. In that case Chinese EVs are the least of the countries worries.
But there will be time for worrying about that later.
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Post by david on Feb 19, 2024 22:21:00 GMT -5
Peter,
I appreciate your criticism of the government's push to electric. But, I think that, historically the USA government's push for better MPG, seat belts, and air bags has served us well. And I suspect that the Chinese government's push (mandate) to create E-cars that are competitive with Tesla's, Volvos, etc., has caused a better, lower cost car to be available to many.
I do not like it, but it is competition and it raises the bar. And yes, I understand that government subsidies, air quality standards, worker wages, etc come in to play. So how are Ford,Tesla, and GM going to react?
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 6:01:02 GMT -5
Peter, I appreciate your criticism of the government's push to electric. But, I think that, historically the USA government's push for better MPG, seat belts, and air bags has served us well. And I suspect that the Chinese government's push (mandate) to create E-cars that are competitive with Tesla's, Volvos, etc., has caused a better, lower cost car to be available to many. I do not like it, but it is competition and it raises the bar. And yes, I understand that government subsidies, air quality standards, worker wages, etc come in to play. So how are Ford,Tesla, and GM going to react? Depends on what happens with Chevron. And, no, forcing vehicles to be electric like the EPA is doing has nothing to do with competition. It's the elimination of the free market for the first time in our history. And it will be devastating if allowed to succeed. |
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Post by Marshall on Feb 20, 2024 8:24:15 GMT -5
I'm torn on the issue of EVs. Mechanically, they're better. It's the whole battery thing and the infrastructure to support them that is lagging behind the push (mandate) to go there. Personally, I'm liking Toyota's approach with hybrids. The US is not ready to support full EVs. Nor are full EVs ready to support the full American life style. Yet.
I'm intrigued by the Chinese push into the modern manufacturing world. It's not a free market, but a government encouraged (controlled, helped) market. Too bad they want to crush us.
I'm an old guy. There's a lot about the modern world I don't particularly like. And I have fears for my children and grand children.
But the modern whiskeys are really good. A little pricey, but enjoyable just the same.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 8:44:14 GMT -5
I'm torn on the issue of EVs. Mechanically, they're better. It's the whole battery thing and the infrastructure to support them that is lagging behind the push (mandate) to go there. Personally, I'm liking Toyota's approach with hybrids. The US is not ready to support full EVs. Nor are full EVs ready to support the full American life style. Yet. I'm intrigued by the Chinese push into the modern manufacturing world. It's not a free market, but a government encouraged (controlled, helped) market. Too bad they want to crush us. I'm an old guy. There's a lot about the modern world I don't particularly like. And I have fears for my children and grand children. But the modern whiskeys are really good. A little pricey, but enjoyable just the same. No. EVs suck at doing work. And that's due to the intractable problem of having a battery. The same basic motor systems in EVs are also used in factories, etc. to run conveyors, etc. The difference is that the motor in the factory is hard wired into the grid where it can pull as much juice as it needs. Wire that to a battery and put it under load and it will suck the battery dry in no time. An EV is really only good for morning commutes with the load being a driver and a briefcase. Sad reality that has no solution. And the Chinese are merely taking advantage of the West's hubris. They too signed on to the Paris Accords. But they negotiated a time-line to start looking at reducing CO2 in 2030. They aren't committed to even thinking about it for another 6 years. Meanwhile, the West is all on fire to shoot themselves in the dick. And all China's doing is smiling and selling us stuff made with child and slave labor where we can't compete. There's a good reason we used to not trust them. But somehow we forgot. |
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,853 
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Post by Dub on Feb 20, 2024 12:09:34 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 12:37:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd heard something like that last night. But as is usually the case, Ars Technica has mangled the reporting so it's tough to tell what it means. Won't matter at all if Chevron is overturned in June though. EPA will be out of the game entirely at that point. |
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,853
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Post by Dub on Feb 20, 2024 13:21:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd heard something like that last night. But as is usually the case, Ars Technica has mangled the reporting so it's tough to tell what it means. Won't matter at all if Chevron is overturned in June though. EPA will be out of the game entirely at that point. Yeah, I get that. But if Chevron is overturned, doesn’t that kind remove the Supreme Court from the legislation game? Not that anyone on the court would act in their own self-interest or anything like that. Would they hang on to Chevron just to keep their hand in? |
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Post by coachdoc on Feb 20, 2024 13:56:14 GMT -5
Peter, I appreciate your criticism of the government's push to electric. But, I think that, historically the USA government's push for better MPG, seat belts, and air bags has served us well. And I suspect that the Chinese government's push (mandate) to create E-cars that are competitive with Tesla's, Volvos, etc., has caused a better, lower cost car to be available to many. I do not like it, but it is competition and it raises the bar. And yes, I understand that government subsidies, air quality standards, worker wages, etc come in to play. So how are Ford,Tesla, and GM going to react? Depends on what happens with Chevron. And, no, forcing vehicles to be electric like the EPA is doing has nothing to do with competition. It's the elimination of the free market for the first time in our history. And it will be devastating if allowed to succeed. Hargh wash. |
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 20, 2024 15:05:25 GMT -5
EVs suck at doing work. And that's due to the intractable problem of having a battery. The same basic motor systems in EVs are also used in factories, etc. to run conveyors, etc. The difference is that the motor in the factory is hard wired into the grid where it can pull as much juice as it needs. Wire that to a battery and put it under load and it will suck the battery dry in no time. An EV is really only good for morning commutes with the load being a driver and a briefcase. I suppose it depends on 1) what you mean by "work" and 2) the value of reducing the emissions from all those morning commuters. On 1), I suspect that a plug-in hybrid the size of our '06 Outback is capable of all the work I ask of a vehicle, which does not, to be sure, include towing trailers or boats but does occasionally involve carting around stuff that will fit in the cargo area. And I specified a hybrid because we do drive to the Cities or Iowa or other places where charging stations are not readily available. On the other hand, a friend has a Chevy Bolt that he has been driving cross-country for several years with no recharging issues. (I think he has a phone app that maps stations.) Then there's the possibility that a car is not a factory, though a long-haul big rig might start to mimic those demands on a battery system. On 2), amelioration of problems is a real thing, and a technology that significantly reduces pollution, even if it does not eliminate it, is worth adopting and promoting. If enough of those commuters were driving low- or no-emission cars, the air would be cleaner and the carbon load causing climate change would be decreased. |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 15:13:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd heard something like that last night. But as is usually the case, Ars Technica has mangled the reporting so it's tough to tell what it means. Won't matter at all if Chevron is overturned in June though. EPA will be out of the game entirely at that point. Yeah, I get that. But if Chevron is overturned, doesn’t that kind remove the Supreme Court from the legislation game? Not that anyone on the court would act in their own self-interest or anything like that. Would they hang on to Chevron just to keep their hand in? They've never been in the legislative game. It's old Schoolhouse Rock stuff. Legislative legislates, Executive executes, and the Judicial judges disputes. The problem with Chevron is that they didn't send it back to Congress to clarify (I suppose declaring it null and void until fixed). They opted to give the agency (in the Executive) the deciding vote in a clear conflict of interest. But EPA itself came out of that 60s/70s thinking that agencies should be the experts because life has gotten just too complicated. Which is why no one can know for sure how much damage overturning Chevron will do. The Clean Air Act is kind of a noncommittal mess. Largely on purpose. Should be fun to watch. |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 15:15:20 GMT -5
EVs suck at doing work. And that's due to the intractable problem of having a battery. The same basic motor systems in EVs are also used in factories, etc. to run conveyors, etc. The difference is that the motor in the factory is hard wired into the grid where it can pull as much juice as it needs. Wire that to a battery and put it under load and it will suck the battery dry in no time. An EV is really only good for morning commutes with the load being a driver and a briefcase. I suppose it depends on 1) what you mean by "work" and 2) the value of reducing the emissions from all those morning commuters. On 1), I suspect that a plug-in hybrid the size of our '06 Outback is capable of all the work I ask of a vehicle, which does not, to be sure, include towing trailers or boats but does occasionally involve carting around stuff that will fit in the cargo area. And I specified a hybrid because we do drive to the Cities or Iowa or other places where charging stations are not readily available. On the other hand, a friend has a Chevy Bolt that he has been driving cross-country for several years with no recharging issues. (I think he has a phone app that maps stations.) Then there's the possibility that a car is not a factory, though a long-haul big rig might start to mimic those demands on a battery system. On 2), amelioration of problems is a real thing, and a technology that significantly reduces pollution, even if it does not eliminate it, is worth adopting and promoting. If enough of those commuters were driving low- or no-emission cars, the air would be cleaner and the carbon load causing climate change would be decreased. I'm talking about work in the physics sense of the word. Look it up. |
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 20, 2024 15:30:08 GMT -5
And I'm looking at how much work is required to accomplish a particular task. Like the task of moving a commuter (with or without briefcase) X miles to a destination in Y minutes. I suspect it requires less work than running an assembly line.
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Post by Marshall on Feb 20, 2024 16:19:26 GMT -5
I'm torn on the issue of EVs. Mechanically, they're better. It's the whole battery thing and the infrastructure to support them that is lagging No. EVs suck at doing work. And that's due to the intractable problem of having a battery. Yeah, you're right about batteries. The motor itself is much simpler than the internal combustion engine/transmission. But it's the fuel thing. And EVs have to drag around a lot of weight in batteries to get the same OOMF of a gas engine. Somebody posted once a thing where a guy shows that the volumetric amount of batteries required to provide the same energy in a gallon of gas is 13 times larger. And the weight is even more than 13 times as much. And filling up a tank of gas is so much quicker. But I think the battery/charger issues will get worked out. But it's not likely to happen in my driving life time. Of course, simple urban commuter driving is presently workable for an EV. Just not open road long hauls. I believe, while Sue and I are still driving, we'll always have a gas car for trips. But my car (now a Civic 32.7 mpg) will be the more environmentally friendly vehicle. Next one will probably be a hybrid of some sort. |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 20, 2024 17:29:06 GMT -5
And I'm looking at how much work is required to accomplish a particular task. Like the task of moving a commuter (with or without briefcase) X miles to a destination in Y minutes. I suspect it requires less work than running an assembly line. OK, I can work with that. But it'll be later after I've walked the pups for the last time this evening. |
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Post by coachdoc on Feb 20, 2024 17:31:50 GMT -5
Don't know if this means anything, but I drove a Tesla the other day. Was first in line at a red light. Stepped on the gas as it turned green, and my head snapped back and I was shoved hard back into the chair. I was surprised and pleased. That was fun.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 19,853
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Post by Dub on Feb 20, 2024 17:40:26 GMT -5
Don't know if this means anything, but I drove a Tesla the other day. Was first in line at a red light. Stepped on the gas as it turned green, and my head snapped back and I was shoved hard back into the chair. I was surprised and pleased. That was fun. That’s great news, Doc. For some reason, I thought you weren’t driving anymore. |
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