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Post by Russell Letson on May 2, 2024 18:14:47 GMT -5
And by what means are Hamas to be beaten? How much collateral damage is acceptable? And who gets to do the accepting? We've been through something like this before, and I don't mean the insistence on unconditional surrender at the end of WW2.
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Post by millring on May 2, 2024 18:15:20 GMT -5
Now, is a "halt to the fighting" as a condition of freeing hostages the same as surrender? Yes. The state of the situation before Hamas attacked WAS ceasefire. Hamas needs to lose, not live to fight another day. We are purposely forcing Israel to quit before they win instead of demanding of Hamas that they accept defeat to spare the civilians.
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Post by epaul on May 2, 2024 19:23:55 GMT -5
Now, is a "halt to the fighting" as a condition of freeing hostages the same as surrender? ... The state of the situation before Hamas attacked WAS ceasefire. Hamas needs to lose, not live to fight another day. With this I agree. Finish the job. Israel is already screwed in the "World Court". A cease fire or whatever won't gain them an ounce of forgiveness (or "likes"). Finish the job. A cease fire with Hamas left in place... with recruitment offices open and overflowing with the unfathomably bitter and consumed still standing...? Nope, not a good option for Israel. Not an option at all. Not now. Too late for anything else, finish the job. Crush Hamas. Then dump Netanyahu. And then, maybe, out of the rubble, the complete rubble, maybe something can be built. But to continue the continue on and on and on...? [edited not to escape responsibility but to protect our language: ruble => rubble]
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Post by epaul on May 2, 2024 19:54:30 GMT -5
That's what I think and that's where I stand (safe and far away).
But, I also know, deep inside, that if I were a young Palestinian in this country, I would be saddened and outraged and saddened again all beyond words... and I would be protesting my ass off! I wouldn't know what else to do.
I know what side I'm on, and I'm on it warts and all. But I also know there are other sides. Some understandable, some not. But they are there. And they all depend on what shoes your feet are in and where they've trod.
But I know what shoes my feet are in.
And I know Biden's feet are in really big shoes, and he is screwed on this no matter what he does. And what he has done by deed, if not by every ear-filtered speech, is support Israel fully by every metric that counts. But, man, is he screwed on this, and he has nothing to do with any of it. But, it's Republican time to make hay.
But, if I'm asked (I won't be) I say, finish the damn job. Invade the south, blow all the tunnels, and flush every den of Hamas rats you can. Then shoot them.
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Post by billhammond on May 2, 2024 20:07:54 GMT -5
And then, maybe, out of the ruble, the complete ruble, maybe something can be built. I doubt they'll be dealing in Russian currency.
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Post by billhammond on May 2, 2024 20:20:37 GMT -5
And then, maybe, out of the ruble, the complete ruble, maybe something can be built. I doubt they'll be dealing in Russian currency. Little known historical fact: Russia's currency name is derived from very-early Czar and Czarina Barney and Betty Ruble.
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Post by epaul on May 2, 2024 20:24:32 GMT -5
Crap. And now it's too late to change it. I'm screwed.
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Post by epaul on May 2, 2024 20:36:10 GMT -5
I did change it. To protect our language.
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protests
May 2, 2024 20:42:25 GMT -5
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Post by millring on May 2, 2024 20:42:25 GMT -5
Too bad I couldn't have loned you a "b".
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Post by millring on May 3, 2024 5:53:50 GMT -5
But, it's Republican time to make hay. I've tried to come up with a way to express how perverse I think this is. I can't.
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Post by Cornflake on May 3, 2024 7:53:15 GMT -5
Since the beginning of this war, wiser heads have been observing that the two sides can't fight their way to any solution. The Palestinians aren't going to kill all the Israelis. The Israelis aren't going to kill all the Palestinians. They're going to have to find a way to live together, like it or not, sooner or later. If the Israelis could kill everyone Palestinian who supports Hamas, they would still face a hostile population in Gaza. They're making it more hostile by killing so many noncombatants.
Israel was justified in going after those who were responsible for, or participated in, the October incursion. I wish them success in that regard. Hamas still holds Israeli hostages. That alone would justify continued military action.
But the military action has to stay within limits. Israel is required by international law and basic morality to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Doing that would also serve Israel's long-term self-interest. I haven't seen much of an effort by Israel to minimize civilian casualties. That's my central objection to what Netanyahu has been doing.
When the current shooting eventually ends--or pauses--nothing fundamental will have changed. All these deaths on both sides aren't really solving anything. I think Israel's primary goal should be to get as many hostages released as possible. The chimerical goal of completely destroying Hamas should be put aside. The attempt is costing needless deaths on both sides. Israel needs leaders who understand that the underlying problem can't be solved by war. Netanyahu either doesn't understand that or doesn't care.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on May 3, 2024 8:05:09 GMT -5
Back to the protests, here at Portland State University, where my daughter works, the school has been closed all week as protesters took over the library. Yesterday the police moved in arresting 30 people, only 7 of which were students. And while in the libtprary, what did the protesters do? They fuckin destroyed the place. Spray painted graffiti all over the walls, books, floors. Assholes.
Mike
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protests
May 3, 2024 8:56:37 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on May 3, 2024 8:56:37 GMT -5
Back to the protests, here at Portland State University, where my daughter works, the school has been closed all week as protesters took over the library. Yesterday the police moved in arresting 39 people, only 7 of which were students. And while in the libtprary, what did the protesters do? They fuckin destroyed the place. Spray painted graffiti all over the walls, books, floors. Assholes. Mike Yes indeed.
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Post by epaul on May 3, 2024 9:12:45 GMT -5
But, it's Republican time to make hay. I've tried to come up with a way to express how perverse I think this is. I can't. "If Israel is equally evil, I'm not on board with that. Our leadership seems to." Where does stuff like this come from? Who would insinuate that our current president thinks Israel is as evil as Hamas? In an election year, no less. "They knew going in that our government would turn on Israel." Where does stuff like this come from? Who would state that the leader of our government, Joe Biden, has turned on Israel? A president who pushed a no strings attached 95 billion dollar military aid package for Israel through congress and signed it just last week. And why would someone say that folks like Cornflake who have expressed concerned over civilian casualties "are "conflicted" over Israel itself and therefore are supporting (or sympathetic for) Hamas and are certainly NOT concerned about the survival of democracy?" Where does that come from? The quotes are yours, but I am hearing similar from Republicans right and left, Republican politicians and pundits doing all they can to portray Biden as anti-Israel and, by word and deed, a weak softie on Hamas, which they translate to being a Hamas equater/supporter. In this election year, Republicans are most certainly trying to make quick political hay over this enduring conflict by misrepresenting and distorting Biden's words and actions for all they are worth. A Biden who just signed a 95 billion, no strings attached, military aid package to Israel, a Biden who has sent American navel carriers to Gulf, a Biden who is fighting a Putin their Trump would love to jump in bed with (ok, so I switched gears)
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protests
May 3, 2024 9:24:42 GMT -5
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Post by millring on May 3, 2024 9:24:42 GMT -5
People who expect Israel to surrender. If not now, eventually. It's been going on my entire life.
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protests
May 3, 2024 9:26:54 GMT -5
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Post by millring on May 3, 2024 9:26:54 GMT -5
People who are concerned that Republicans might gain support ... and so only for that reason will they pretend support of Israel.
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Post by howard lee on May 3, 2024 9:32:23 GMT -5
Back to the protests, here at Portland State University, where my daughter works, the school has been closed all week as protesters took over the library. Yesterday the police moved in arresting 30 people, only 7 of which were students. And while in the libtprary, what did the protesters do? They fuckin destroyed the place. Spray painted graffiti all over the walls, books, floors. Assholes. Mike I was listening to NPR a little while ago and the newscast stated that of the arrests made on the Columbia University campus the other night, 30% of those arrested were not affiliated with the university in any way. This issue is really fertile ground for opportunists, too.
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Post by epaul on May 3, 2024 9:39:00 GMT -5
I will note that if I were a young Palestinian protester, I would not be trashing libraries, I would be attending peaceful candlelit vigils while looking for a pretty Jewish girl to hold hands with and sing Kumbaya.
(which is pretty much what I did as a Vietnam war protester in college. Fertile grounds for romance.)
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protests
May 3, 2024 9:39:05 GMT -5
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Post by millring on May 3, 2024 9:39:05 GMT -5
It was said that we should hold Israel to a higher standard than we do Hamas. We do. Defense is by definition a higher standard.
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protests
May 3, 2024 9:49:40 GMT -5
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Post by millring on May 3, 2024 9:49:40 GMT -5
And if Democrats are pro Israel, then how do the Republicans "make hay"
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