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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 9:42:43 GMT -5
[...] As far as I can tell, both of these are third-rail areas, with different groups policing them. (Interesting mixed metaphor there.) [...]. Not really. Just think... Transit Police.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jan 7, 2011 11:50:36 GMT -5
Evan, anti-Semitism is apparently, like the poor, always with us, no matter what we do to raise all boats and educated the masses. Lately I've noticed about a couple of strains: high-profile examples of classic Holocaust-denying anti-Semitism coming from the various Islamist leaders (notably Ahmadinejad); and the even more classic demotic variety from various web-based knuckle-walkers, perhaps encouraged by the emotional overflow from the Tea Party. Certainly routine anti-Jewish remarks and sentiments have never gone out of fashion in our part of Minnesota.
And, as I pointed out a while back, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion still has its fans worldwide and, thanks to the internet, is more available than ever.
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Post by millring on Jan 7, 2011 12:25:19 GMT -5
... and the even more classic demotic variety from various web-based knuckle-walkers, perhaps encouraged by the emotional overflow from the Tea Party. The Tea Partiers are anti-semitic? Really?
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Post by Chesapeake on Jan 7, 2011 12:39:05 GMT -5
Incidentally, while I would never attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism, it does seem that most of the criticism I hear of Israel comes from liberals, and most defense of Israel comes from conservatives. Just an observation.
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Post by patrick on Jan 7, 2011 12:53:55 GMT -5
Incidentally, while I would never attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism, it does seem that most of the criticism I hear of Israel comes from liberals, and most defense of Israel comes from conservatives. Just an observation. You need to read The Israel Lobby.
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 12:57:33 GMT -5
Incidentally, while I would never attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism, it does seem that most of the criticism I hear of Israel comes from liberals, and most defense of Israel comes from conservatives. Just an observation. Possibly, but, as Al Franken said, conservatives just want to make sure that Israel survives long enough to be God-Smacked during the end times. As the saying goes, with friends like that ... .
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Post by theevan on Jan 7, 2011 13:08:35 GMT -5
Incidentally, while I would never attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism, it does seem that most of the criticism I hear of Israel comes from liberals, and most defense of Israel comes from conservatives. Just an observation. You need to read The Israel Lobby.You disagree with Chesapeake's "most"?
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Post by Chesapeake on Jan 7, 2011 13:09:42 GMT -5
I have another possible explanation. I've also observed that liberals tend to side with the underdog. A laudable trait, in general. In this case the perceived underdog seems to be the Palestinians.
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 13:12:13 GMT -5
There is no "most" in this country when it comes to criticizing Israel. Just as there is no "most" when it comes to discussing the number of unicorns and leprechauns.
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 13:19:41 GMT -5
Find a politician, other than that flaming liberal, Pat Buchanan, who would ever dare utter a policy statement about Israel that did not include "with whom we have a very special and enduring relationship" in it.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jan 7, 2011 13:29:08 GMT -5
John, I carefully indicated that the emotional overflow from the Tea Party might be encouraging traditional anti-Semites to come out of the closet, in the same way that understandable and legitimate civil protest can inspire traditional thugs and thieves to start breaking store windows and stealing microwaves. One dog barks at a burglar and every dog in the neighborhood starts to howl.
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 13:33:07 GMT -5
Are you comparing T-Partiers to dogs?
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Post by Cornflake on Jan 7, 2011 13:38:39 GMT -5
Isn't that the ad caninem fallacy?
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 13:52:09 GMT -5
To be clear, I am at heart an Israel supporter. When push comes to shove, they can do whatever they think they need to do, as far as I am concerned. If that means bombing Iran and thinning out the neighbors, so be it. Fine with me. I see no peace at hand in the Middle East. I see only the opposite.
But, pragmatically, unless Israel thinks it can pull off a virtual neighborhood genocide deal, I think the state of Israel, as a Jewish entity on the best-watered patch of ground in that overcrowded and desperately poor Muslim desert, is screwed.
As for the liberal/conservative/Israel thing. Really, there is no opposition to or even questioning of Israel in this country, outside of some oddball assortment of critics no more numerous than any similar group of oddballs you could round up in support of Venusian Spaceflight rights and the preservation of Bigfoot's breeding grounds.
When Israel finally does lose support in this country, it won't be a liberal/conservative thing. It will be because there will eventually be enough people in his country who were raised outside of the Judeo-Christian matrix, and who have no ingrained emotional attachment to Israel, to matter politically.
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Post by millring on Jan 7, 2011 13:55:24 GMT -5
Incidentally, while I would never attribute all criticism of Israel to anti-semitism, it does seem that most of the criticism I hear of Israel comes from liberals, and most defense of Israel comes from conservatives. Just an observation. Possibly, but, as Al Franken said, conservatives just want to make sure that Israel survives long enough to be God-Smacked during the end times. As the saying goes, with friends like that ... . Well then Al Franken is an ignorant fool.
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Post by millring on Jan 7, 2011 13:56:44 GMT -5
John, I carefully indicated that the emotional overflow from the Tea Party might be encouraging traditional anti-Semites to come out of the closet, in the same way that understandable and legitimate civil protest can inspire traditional thugs and thieves to start breaking store windows and stealing microwaves. One dog barks at a burglar and every dog in the neighborhood starts to howl. :: nods ::
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Post by millring on Jan 7, 2011 14:02:14 GMT -5
I have another possible explanation. I've also observed that liberals tend to side with the underdog. A laudable trait, in general. In this case the perceived underdog seems to be the Palestinians. That, and any ally during the cold war (which was always perceived by the left as a silly bit of US paranoia and a right wing fantasy invented to fund the US military) with the USSR was bound to be suspect. That they were on our side througout made them unlovable.
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Post by Chesapeake on Jan 7, 2011 14:11:55 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree that Israel's longterm odds of survival are not good without some fundamental game-changer, the nature of which is hard to imagine, given the Palestinians' apparent unwillingness to accept any settlement that doesn't involve eradicating Israel.
That aside, I think it's a bit of overstatement to say that Israel's support in the U.S. depends entirely on American Jews and Christian fundamentalists. They certainly count, but let's not rule out the idealistic appeal to Americans of having a homeland for the Jewish nation - a historically oppressed people - as long as the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians for their own homeland can be reasonably accomodated. (Wiping out Israel, in my opinion, is not a legitimate aspiration.) Our own country to a large degree was founded by members of oppressed religious minorities.
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Post by epaul on Jan 7, 2011 14:12:03 GMT -5
Al was making a joke that, like many jokes, (not all)), contains enough truth to have a bit of a bite.
The joke clearly doesn't pertain to any thoughtful conservative here, or elsewhere, but certainly for a good number of folks who would be classified as conservative by voting pattern (and most other metrics, whatever they may be) support for Israel hinges upon the fact that they believe it is "God's Plan, as espoused in the Bible" that Israel Is. This view is not a minority view. It is a majority view of conservative church-goers.
Furthermore, as believed by most conservative fundamentalist's, God's plan included not just the "re-establishment" of Israel, it also contains the "end days" destruction of Israel and all its inhabitants who do not shuck their Jewish faith into the nearest trash can and accept Jesus as God.
I think Al correctly noted, in his joke, that there is a dichotomy present in the minds of some religious conservatives: Israel = Good / Jew = Bad. As defined by the Bible. Certainly, there are those who support the state of Israel for reasons other than the interests of the Jewish people as Jews.
-and yes, I know, there are all kinds of Christians who do not believe God has a master game plan involving Israel as a material entity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2011 14:21:38 GMT -5
As to support/opposition to Israel, the perspectives are all over the map, and political affiliation ain't a huge player. Look, there are old-style anti-semites who have always been in the anti-israel camp. Most of those guys we'd characterize as conservative. And, there is the underdog thing which appeals to some liberals, and some of our own minorities. There's probably still a few old sailors who "remember the Liberty", and will be reluctant to embrace a government which attacked the US Navy, and killed some of the crew. And, I suspect we all know a few people who tend to support israel because they perceive it to be an experienced killer of arabs/muslims, whatever. There are bible-guys who reflexively support israel for some kind of religious interpretation of their stories. It's one of those issues where it's just plumb foolish to predict a person's opinion based on some kind of right/left matrix.
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