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Post by timfarney on Sept 13, 2011 6:21:47 GMT -5
...the veterans benefits Tim I agree that Doug's view is extreme and I believe those views are also unrealistic. But I absolutely bristle at the number of times people here throw this -- his veteran's benefits -- in his face. He PAID for those benefits, god damn it. YOU didn't, and dare to throw that in his face. I almost can't believe the audacity. Let me clarify for you then -- I absolutely believe that Doug deserves the veterans benefits he gets. I don't even know what did or did not happen to him in Viet Nam and I believe that. But Doug doesn't. His philosophy is unqualified anti-government. If you really believe that he believes in his own rhetoric, and I don't by the way, you can't help but conclude that Doug believes that the roads he drives on, the gas he (almost) pays for, the clean water he drinks, air he breathes, food he eats...it's all a product of slavery. His veterans benefits are just the most direct and extreme example, and a very good one, but they're just one. Sorry it offends you. My son-in-law has done three tours, by the way. What do you suppose he has earned? A lifetime's healthcare for 3 people? The involvement of military service in the discussion doesn't take all the nuance out of it and doesn't take it off the table. Tim
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Post by millring on Sept 13, 2011 6:38:27 GMT -5
No, the most you could say is that Doug still served out of duty to people like you who didn't...even THOUGH he didn't believe in that kind of service. More likely it is that very service he did that you didn't that informed the views that you arrogantly look down on from your ivory palace. Either way, he earned veteran's benefits and, yes, I am offended that you would throw them in his face just to score weak rhetorical points on an internet forum in which you seem capable of little else but spewing sarcasm.
And your son-in-law's service earns you equal footing to be discussing service with Doug? How screwed up is that?
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Post by aquaduct on Sept 13, 2011 7:08:12 GMT -5
And now our beloved Tory govt seems to be lurching towards the 'ufmc' word in a way that makes me shudder for the survival of many of the state-supported institutions that I took for granted when I was growing up (and which I am happy to support through my taxes), like the NHS. But that's another story... That does seem to be a practical problem, frazer, and it's one of the reasons for American (well at least some Americans) skepticism over the inherent superiority of all things European. Yes, you've got NHS. You're also going broke over it. That second part never quite seems to make it into the discussions here. I've done time with a European multi-national. I know how expensive the American ex-pat in Europe gig is compared to the European ex-pat in the US. Europe's a different place. Different, often much more homogeneous, cultures. Higher costs of living. Different social norms. Vastly smaller land masses. It's tough to compare. Yet democrats do it all the time. Take a single slice of a very diverse and dynamic landscape and hold it up as the shining path for America. The industrialized world (Europe primarily) has universal health care, why don't we? Germany has one of the strongest industrial sectors in the world, why don't we? Scandinavia has some of the highest standards of living in the world, why don't we? Hmmm....... good questions. Except all those great public benefits seem to be driving much of Europe to bankruptcy. And, of course, when we do try to do the same public benefits like healthcare reform, we go out and pull a model that seems to pick up the worst features of all of it. But that's another story..... Except Germany is fighting to keep the EU afloat (and periodically has to deal with some pretty nasty ethnic strife. People seem to forget that Scandinavia has oil. That sure as hell helps. Yeah, maybe it isn't socialism (and I'm sure I'll get a nice explanation of the etymology of the word and the historical context of socialism from the progressive democratic viewpoint). But it's something and it's what's constantly being held out to us as the solution to all our nation issues. Whatever it is called I'm of the opinion that y'all can keep it.
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Post by timfarney on Sept 13, 2011 7:53:14 GMT -5
No, the most you could say is that Doug still served out of duty to people like you who didn't...even THOUGH he didn't believe in that kind of service. More likely it is that very service he did that you didn't that informed the views that you arrogantly look down on from your ivory palace. Either way, he earned veteran's benefits and, yes, I am offended that you would throw them in his face just to score weak rhetorical points on an internet forum in which you seem capable of little else but spewing sarcasm. And your son-in-law's service earns you equal footing to be discussing service with Doug? How screwed up is that? Forget my son-in-law then, John. Lots of guys these days serve one deployment after another. What's their payback? And if, at some point, they come to the conclusion that the government they fought for, that, in fact, all government is evil, is wrong, should not be supported in any way, do they face no conflict in believing that and benefitting from that government? It's a fair question, and one qualified by my belief that Doug does deserve his benefits. I'm not questioning whether or not Doug deserves his benefits; I never have. I'm question how he rationalizes complete rejection of the validity of government with such an intimate, long-term relationship with it. It's really no different than my questioning his use of the interstate highway system. Doug's views are purist, uncomplicated and off the grid. His actions are not. Tim
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Post by Supertramp78 on Sept 13, 2011 8:13:50 GMT -5
John, my issue is Doug describes the world in this absolute black and white. If you tax people and you don't have 100% voluntary tax payments, it is slavery. Tim points out roads and stuff and Doug doesn't care what the money is used for, it is still slavery and evil. When it is pointed out that he benefits from these very same evil slave taxes suddenly he doesn't mind so much. It doesn't matter if he or you or anyone feels he deserves it, he shouldn't be in favor of it if it really is evil and slavery. He accuses Tim (and me previously) of supporting evil and slavery but I guarantee that nobody here supports those slave tax supported evil benefits as much as he does.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2011 10:06:20 GMT -5
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." - Thomas Jefferson (U.S. President)
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Post by dickt on Sept 13, 2011 10:17:52 GMT -5
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Post by Supertramp78 on Sept 13, 2011 10:25:44 GMT -5
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet." - Abraham Lincoln
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2011 10:36:55 GMT -5
"I knew that!" - Al Gore
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Post by Doug on Sept 13, 2011 13:20:55 GMT -5
But you had no choice, and if even one person wasn't happy then it's slavery. There's a fundamental difference between slavery and European or US "socialism." Slaves couldn't leave. If they did, they were brought back. Any time anyone in Europe or the US doesn't like the system the majority has set up through democratic means, they can leave. No one HAS to be subject to our "socialism." You can move to the former Soviet countries where they have pretty much dissolved their social safety net and you can enjoy truly unfettered free market capitalism, even unfettered by the obtrusive government regulation that you can't kill your competition. Or you can move to the tribal areas of Pakistan, where there is no government at all. Or there is a vast swath of jungle area in southern China to eastern Vietnam and into Laos and Cambodia where there is no government and people live without government interference. Go on. We'll miss you, but you have to follow your dharma, man. We were here before there was a country. 1717 So from my POV those who don't like it can leave, I was here first.
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Post by prodigalone on Sept 13, 2011 14:11:22 GMT -5
I love the power of the internet sometimes.
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Post by timfarney on Sept 13, 2011 14:22:57 GMT -5
There's a fundamental difference between slavery and European or US "socialism." Slaves couldn't leave. If they did, they were brought back. Any time anyone in Europe or the US doesn't like the system the majority has set up through democratic means, they can leave. No one HAS to be subject to our "socialism." You can move to the former Soviet countries where they have pretty much dissolved their social safety net and you can enjoy truly unfettered free market capitalism, even unfettered by the obtrusive government regulation that you can't kill your competition. Or you can move to the tribal areas of Pakistan, where there is no government at all. Or there is a vast swath of jungle area in southern China to eastern Vietnam and into Laos and Cambodia where there is no government and people live without government interference. Go on. We'll miss you, but you have to follow your dharma, man. We were here before there was a country. 1717 So from my POV those who don't like it can leave, I was here first. Who's "we?" Your ancestors? You are not your ancestors and the fact that they arrived here before mine came over doesn't give you any extra rights. I don't think you have to leave the country, though. Get far enough up in the mountains or deep enough in the woods and you can probably get off the grid, or pretty close. You'll have to grit your teeth and wear your evil armor and use gummit-subsidized gas on gummit-built roads to get to the grocery store, but you can get fairly close to living up to your own standards without heading for the jungle or the badlands of Eastern Europe. Right now? You ain't even close, bro. Nevermind the veteran's benefits, you're living on the evil gummit's roads. You're burnin' lots of evil gummit-subsidized gas, taking evil gummit-regulated meds, holding evil gummit licenses, eating evil gummit inspected food....you gotta get back to the land, dude, trapping rabbits and growing turnips. It's the only way to get your money even in the same county as your mouth. You drawing your Social Security? Tim
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Post by Doug on Sept 13, 2011 15:05:34 GMT -5
Ya'll are like people who move to the country for the country life and then want to pave the roads and put in city water and sewers. Then close the dairy cause it smells. ;D
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Post by brucemacneill on Sept 13, 2011 15:08:36 GMT -5
" Who's "we?" Your ancestors? You are not your ancestors" Then why am I still paying for their sins?
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Post by omaha on Sept 13, 2011 15:11:29 GMT -5
" Who's "we?" Your ancestors? You are not your ancestors" Then why am I still paying for their sins? Oops!
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Post by Doug on Sept 13, 2011 15:20:18 GMT -5
We are our ancestors. Dat's biology.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Sept 13, 2011 15:20:50 GMT -5
" Who's "we?" Your ancestors? You are not your ancestors" Then why am I still paying for their sins? Ancestor's sins? I've got plenty of my own I'll never get paid off. Thankfully, in my belief system, I don't have to.
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Post by Russell Letson on Sept 13, 2011 15:23:42 GMT -5
We are our ancestors. Dat's biology. Then why ain't I a binge-drinking bully and gifted engineer, instead of a wussy, temperate scribbler?
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Post by brucemacneill on Sept 13, 2011 15:54:38 GMT -5
We are our ancestors. Dat's biology. Then why ain't I a binge-drinking bully and gifted engineer, instead of a wussy, temperate scribbler? I'm guessing an unfortunate decision when you were young.
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Post by dradtke on Sept 13, 2011 16:25:37 GMT -5
" Who's "we?" Your ancestors? You are not your ancestors" Then why am I still paying for their sins? Well, that's original...
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