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Post by Supertramp78 on Mar 13, 2013 13:41:22 GMT -5
Can you think of any reason why a person should not be allowed to own a gun? Does a convicted murderer have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Does someone diagnosed with schizophrenia have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Do illegal aliens have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Once you start tossing around terms like "inalienable rights" you ignore the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that there are limits on that right.
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Post by xyrn on Mar 13, 2013 14:10:40 GMT -5
Can you think of any reason why a person should not be allowed to own a gun? Does a convicted murderer have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Does someone diagnosed with schizophrenia have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Do illegal aliens have an "inalienable right" to own a gun? Once you start tossing around terms like "inalienable rights" you ignore the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that there are limits on that right. I submit that the Supreme Court has been ignoring certain facts about our Constitution for many years now. Yes, there are some reasons that I believe justify the revocation of certain rights, such as the conviction by ones peers of murder, that is, by due process on a per capita basis. Not EVER by some agency making a general rule or classification of people into groups of ineligibility. I don't understand your comparison of non-US Citizens to murderers or schizophrenics (as a similar group that may be ineligible, I know you're not saying aliens are homicidal or mentally ill). My rights, all of your and my rights, are endowed within by the creator, not granted by or subject to limit by the US Government. That is pretty clear. (We hold these truths to be self-evident....) As long as we're discussing schizophrenia and mental illness, most diagnoses fall into a spectrum (you've probably heard the term "autism spectrum disorder") as no two patients have identical experiences or debilities. Some of the negative symptoms of schizophrenia: Loss of interest in everyday activities Appearing to lack emotion Reduced ability to plan or carry out activities Neglect of personal hygiene Social withdrawal Loss of motivation Problems with making sense of information Difficulty paying attention Memory problems Withdrawal from friends and family A drop in performance at school Trouble sleeping Irritability SOURCESo, if you have 2, or 5 or 7 or all of the symptoms, where do you decide that one is dangerously schizophrenic and should therefore be ineligible to own guns? It's hard enough for seasoned professionals to place any given patient solidly along the spectrum, and a thousand pages of legislation certainly would have less success.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Mar 13, 2013 14:15:45 GMT -5
"My rights, all of your and my rights, are endowed within by the creator, not granted by or subject to limit by the US Government. That is pretty clear. (We hold these truths to be self-evident....)"
There is a big difference between saying that and actually believing GOD granted you the right to own a gun. Seriously.
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Post by xyrn on Mar 13, 2013 14:18:50 GMT -5
"My rights, all of your and my rights, are endowed within by the creator, not granted by or subject to limit by the US Government. That is pretty clear. (We hold these truths to be self-evident....)" There is a big difference between saying that and actually believing GOD granted you the right to own a gun. Seriously. Explain it.
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Post by billhammond on Mar 13, 2013 14:27:43 GMT -5
"My rights, all of your and my rights, are endowed within by the creator, not granted by or subject to limit by the US Government. That is pretty clear. (We hold these truths to be self-evident....)" There is a big difference between saying that and actually believing GOD granted you the right to own a gun. Seriously. Explain it. Say please!
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Post by Supertramp78 on Mar 13, 2013 14:33:18 GMT -5
Well you can believe it if you want, but I don't see the Constitution as a religious document with the same authority as say The Bible. If you can find the right to own an AR-15 in the Bible, then I might believe you. But just because some guys wrote it down on paper doesn't mean God agrees with them. I find it much more dangerous (and world events back me up on this) when people start claiming their political POV is supported by their God.
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Post by dradtke on Mar 13, 2013 14:44:36 GMT -5
I find it much more dangerous (and world events back me up on this) when people start claiming their political POV is supported by their God. No, Tramp, it's really only a problem when the other guy thinks that his political point of view is supported by God, because he's obviously wrong. ;D
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Post by david on Mar 13, 2013 15:44:19 GMT -5
I appreciate the intent of the action - to take guns away from felons and incompetents. But I do not like the fact that California has its "list of gun owners." I do not think governments should have such lists.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Mar 13, 2013 15:52:42 GMT -5
I submit that the Supreme Court has been ignoring certain facts about our Constitution for many years now. While the Supreme Court has made decisions I disagree with and wish they had not made, I am having trouble with the logic that the Supreme Court has been ignoring certain facts about our Constitution when that Constitution empowers the court to decide what those facts are and what they mean. Am I missing something? While the court can, in my opinion, be morally wrong, how can they be legally wrong when what they say to be legal, is in fact, what is legal.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Mar 13, 2013 15:59:35 GMT -5
I appreciate the intent of the action - to take guns away from felons and incompetents. But I do not like the fact that California has its "list of gun owners." I do not think governments should have such lists. I am not sure I disagree with you, still considering. But the government maintains a number of lists they use to enforce various laws. A list of people who made income and therefore are subject to taxes. A list of property owners for property taxes A list of car owners for registration A list of births to ensure you send you kids to school A list of 18 year olds for draft (not sure if this is current) A list of MDs for licensing. A list of those who have registered to vote etc. etc.
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Post by Supertramp78 on Mar 13, 2013 16:15:05 GMT -5
I appreciate the intent of the action - to take guns away from felons and incompetents. But I do not like the fact that California has its "list of gun owners." I do not think governments should have such lists. What if they just go to the list of people who legally shouldn't own guns and search for guns? Personally I don't understand why a list of guns is that big a deal. But then I don't own any. This kind of goes back to my question about why the NRA wants lists of mentally illl people but opposes background checks that would let you know if your potential gun buyer was on such a list. For all these gun laws that people bitch aren't being enforced, why all the opposition to the means by which you could enforce them?
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Post by jdd2 on Mar 13, 2013 16:56:08 GMT -5
... I'd suggest that they're being too narrow--in any household, if there's a felon, or someone with mental health issues, guns should not be allowed to anyone in that household. Was off to bed and am just up. I still think that this is the way it should be. And it still seems surprising that only one state would be checking on this, the norm should be that all states except one or two should be doing it.
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Post by Doug on Mar 13, 2013 17:18:48 GMT -5
Not in the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't give anybody the power to decide what the Constitution means. Therefore it falls under the 10th Amendment. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Otherwise you have the watchers watching the watchers.
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Post by Marshall on Mar 13, 2013 17:21:00 GMT -5
The down side of this is I can foresee a small increase in the black market trade for guns in CA. As this progresses those people that know they will be deemed "unfit to own a weapon" will sell what they have and buy unregistered weapons. Maybe. But I don't believe there will be as many as you might be inferring. But do we stop giving out DUIs because some of the perpetrators are going jump in a car and drive anyway? The law is the law. Because some few people can fool the system for a while, doesn't mean that law is bad or the punishment is not appropriate because it's not comprehensive enough. Some people who should not, by law, have guns will no longer have them. And if some of those choose to break another law to dodge around the enforcement net, then maybe they'll get with even harder penalties at some future crossing with the man.
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Post by patrick on Mar 13, 2013 17:25:57 GMT -5
I appreciate the intent of the action - to take guns away from felons and incompetents. But I do not like the fact that California has its "list of gun owners." I do not think governments should have such lists. What if they just go to the list of people who legally shouldn't own guns and search for guns? Personally I don't understand why a list of guns is that big a deal. But then I don't own any. This kind of goes back to my question about why the NRA wants lists of mentally I'll people but opposes background checks that would let you know if your potential gun buyer was on such a list. For all these gun laws that people bitch aren't being enforced, why all the opposition to the means by which you could enforce them? +1 I was in Arizona recently and a law was being proposed that would allow/require certain people to "report" persons they thought were mentally unstable or potentially violent to police. I'm all in favor of gun control, but I had to think WTF?? First off, you're going to have a bunch of amateurs running around "diagnosing" anyone around them (without qualification), then they're going to give the information to the police who are supposed to do what with the information? We're going to turn the US into an East German style surveillance state with all of us spying on each other and reporting to the police? This was coming from anti-gun control people. This is a problem I have with most of the proposals coming from the anti-control crowd, they're willing to have the Federal government compile lists of people on all sorts of criteria, in an absurd attempt to control people, but they demand freedom for their guns. There's a simpler way to regulate who has guns or not, require registration and checks on those who want to own them, not on everyone else.
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Post by Marshall on Mar 13, 2013 17:27:11 GMT -5
I am continually amazed at how legal gun owners are so upset about the efforts to take guns out of the hands of criminals.
Have you undergone background checks to own you fire arms? Do you own them legally? If so, then what are you worried about? Are you worried it's gong to cost you more time and money to keep what you have or want to have? And the bad guys aren't going to care so they're not going to go through the trouble and pay or fill out anything?
In Illinois last year someone was arrested going to an Indiana gun show and buying gym bags full of handguns (without background checks at a gun show) to sell them on the streets of Chicago. Of course this is illegal. But still easy to do if a sting operation wasn't set up to catch somebody. The gun sellers at the show are not responsible for any background checks, even though they know damn well where the guns were going.
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Post by brucemacneill on Mar 13, 2013 18:09:58 GMT -5
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Post by Supertramp78 on Mar 13, 2013 18:14:23 GMT -5
If you don't keep a record that you ran the check, how will anyone know you did it?
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Post by Doug on Mar 13, 2013 19:24:14 GMT -5
I am continually amazed at how legal gun owners are so upset about the efforts to take guns out of the hands of criminals. Have you undergone background checks to own you fire arms? Do you own them legally? If so, then what are you worried about? Are you worried it's gong to cost you more time and money to keep what you have or want to have? And the bad guys aren't going to care so they're not going to go through the trouble and pay or fill out anything? In Illinois last year someone was arrested going to an Indiana gun show and buying gym bags full of handguns (without background checks at a gun show) to sell them on the streets of Chicago. Of course this is illegal. But still easy to do if a sting operation wasn't set up to catch somebody. The gun sellers at the show are not responsible for any background checks, even though they know damn well where the guns were going. Any dealer selling at a gun show runs a check just like he does in his shop. Private individuals selling to other private individuals don't. Most gun sales at gunshows are dealers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 20:06:33 GMT -5
I am continually amazed at how legal gun owners are so upset about the efforts to take guns out of the hands of criminals. Have you undergone background checks to own you fire arms? Do you own them legally? If so, then what are you worried about? Are you worried it's gong to cost you more time and money to keep what you have or want to have? And the bad guys aren't going to care so they're not going to go through the trouble and pay or fill out anything? In Illinois last year someone was arrested going to an Indiana gun show and buying gym bags full of handguns (without background checks at a gun show) to sell them on the streets of Chicago. Of course this is illegal. But still easy to do if a sting operation wasn't set up to catch somebody. The gun sellers at the show are not responsible for any background checks, even though they know damn well where the guns were going. Any dealer selling at a gun show runs a check just like he does in his shop. Private individuals selling to other private individuals don't. Most gun sales at gunshows are dealers. I have seen private sales at a gun show but it is true that the vast majority of sales at a show are dealer sales and they run the same background check they would if it was in their shop.
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