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Post by RickW on Dec 18, 2013 13:17:43 GMT -5
Been doing a bit in my lessons. Being an old fingerpicker, I've been wondering a couple of things. Is it normal to strum when comping, or is it normal to do the simultaneious four finger pluck, (I tend to do this.) Or both. Or mixed.
Just curious what your experience is in the real world. Learning Satin Doll right now, which is fun. My teacher does the hybrid picking thing, where he uses his flatpick like a thumbpick, then plucks with index and ring at the same time.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 18, 2013 13:34:08 GMT -5
I suspect this is a fielder's-choice matter. First, if by "comping" you mean "backing a soloist" as distinct from "playing rhythm," then it's just a matter of continuing with whatever approach you prefer. Most of my mentors have been pick players, though some of them will hybrid-pick behind a soloist, since that allows interesting two- three-note voicings. I've also seen pick players get rid of the pick (palm it or stick it in the mouth) and comp fingerstyle. In trio contexts--especially if there's a bass but no keyboard to clutter up the landscape--the guitar can concentrate on the more spare kind of comping with a bit of rhythm-ish backing. My observation has been, the bigger the band, the less busy the guitarist needs to be. None of which really has much impact on the fingers-or-pick decision.
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Post by RickW on Dec 18, 2013 13:42:40 GMT -5
Tx. I always thought that it was a pick/strumming thing entirely. I should probably get more comfortable with that, but the control over notes and muting that is inherent in fingerpicking is worth a lot in itself.
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Post by millring on Dec 18, 2013 13:43:29 GMT -5
I think it depends on how strong you want the rhythm to come through. If you're essentially the harmony behind a more-or-less single line melody, then it wouldn't matter so much. But if you're part of the rhythm section (as is so often the case) I think a pick is the way to get that distinctive sound.
But as in all else, I defer to Russell.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 18, 2013 14:54:00 GMT -5
I think it depends on how strong you want the rhythm to come through. If you're essentially the harmony behind a more-or-less single line melody, then it wouldn't matter so much. But if you're part of the rhythm section (as is so often the case) I think a pick is the way to get that distinctive sound. Exactly. Remember that the guitar in jazz started as a replacement for the banjo in big bands. As a part of a rhythm section in a big band or even a decent combo with horns, piano and drums you'd never survive and be heard playing fingerstyle. In general I'd say that since most jazz players come up having to cope with those traditional situations, it's natural that most of them would use a pick and maybe hybrid picking in softer situations. That's what I do. Doesn't make fingerstyle in jazz wrong, just rarer.
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Dec 18, 2013 14:59:43 GMT -5
There is lots of (often conflicting) info on the Web about comping as well. Look around and apply what you like. Wikipedia has an entry on comping ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comping) that may be useful. I remember one pro I knew insisted that "comping chords" were played on strings one through four while the regular versions of the same chords had the note on the first string moved to the sixth string. (e.g., G6: 3x243x vs. xx2433)
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 18, 2013 15:20:47 GMT -5
There is lots of (often conflicting) info on the Web about comping as well. Look around and apply what you like. Wikipedia has an entry on comping ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comping) that may be useful. I remember one pro I knew insisted that "comping chords" were played on strings one through four while the regular versions of the same chords had the note on the first string moved to the sixth string. (e.g., G6: 3x243x vs. xx2433) Again, it tends to make more sense if you consider the traditional circumstance of playing in a rhythm section behind horns. In the first place, sonic space is limited. I liken it to a puppy in a box, eventually if the puppy gets too big it will suffocate. So too will the rhythm section. The more pieces, the less everyone plays. If you're playing with a piano, you should expect to play half as much as you would if you were alone. And the bass carries the bottom end. Keeping that in mind, the archtop's strength is that it barks from the 3rd fret to about the 10th in such a way that it can get above the rest of the rhythm section. High end is the first thing to vanish. And with the bass covering the low end, the first voice that can be abandoned in your chords is the root. The second is the 5th. Since you're trying to add interest, you want to highlight the alterations as tastefully as possible with whatever space you've got left. So a very typical approach is the Freddy Green approach (Basie once said, "If you can't hear Freddy, you're too loud.") 3 note "drop 2 (I think that's what they're commonly called)" chords on the 6th, 4th, and 3rd strings between the 3rd and 10th fret. Just like Dub's 3x243x only it's 3x24xx. The 5th string can occasionally substitute for the 6th if you're in the area. That's the traditional approach and why it works. Other situations allow you to spread out more, but it's helpful to keep the origins in mind.
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Post by RickW on Dec 18, 2013 17:08:21 GMT -5
Interesting. I have noted the tendency to use 4 note chords, whether strummed or picked. I have wondered if some of that is also to avoid the fatigue of playing barre chords all the time as well. For instance, G7 seems to be commonly played as 3x343x, and so on up and down other 7th chords, and also the classic C7 shape, x3231x moved up and down. But I guess sonically, it makes some sense, also
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Post by Doug on Dec 18, 2013 17:36:17 GMT -5
I'm going to read all this again when I'm not so tired
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 18, 2013 18:56:51 GMT -5
Interesting. I have noted the tendency to use 4 note chords, whether strummed or picked. I have wondered if some of that is also to avoid the fatigue of playing barre chords all the time as well. For instance, G7 seems to be commonly played as 3x343x, and so on up and down other 7th chords, and also the classic C7 shape, x3231x moved up and down. But I guess sonically, it makes some sense, also Generally duplicate voices only muddy the waters. That G7 is merely the standard full barre G7 with duplicate voices removed. From bottom to top it's root, 7th, 3rd, and 5th. And by doing it that way it opens up the alterations. Drop the 5th a fret and it's the b5 (3x342x). Up a fret and it's the +5 (3x344x). Up another fret and it becomes a common 13 fingering (3x345x). If you then barre that pinky across the high E string you pick up the 9 (3x3455). Drop the 7th a fret and it's a 6th (3x245x). Drop the 3rd a fret and everything's minor (m7- 3x333x, m6- 3x233x). Drop the 3rd another fret and it's the 9th (3x323x-note no 3rd so it's major or minor). Ad nauseum. That C usually shows up as a 9th (x3233x) or the Jimi Hendrix chord #9 (x3234x). In addition you can take those and by sliding up and down the neck you can voice lead moving in parallel harmony lines with different inversions. But I'll leave that to you.
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Post by RickW on Dec 18, 2013 19:24:30 GMT -5
Those old jazz guys thought that through. Very cool, and makes it very simple.
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Post by coachdoc on Dec 18, 2013 21:00:56 GMT -5
Two words. Freddie Green.
Attention 4:30-5:30
And interesting, a great overview of comping Freddie style.
Freddie stole from Bach???
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 19, 2013 1:42:07 GMT -5
Again, in most contexts I've come across, comping and playing rhythm are distinct matters, and Peter and Doc are addressing the latter. I take "comping" to mean the practice of playing some phrases or chord fragments behind/with a soloist, not in a straight-rhythm manner (though in a way that references the rhythm framework). This works best when there's a bass to nail the pulse (and the bottom voice), leaving the guitar to work around both the pulse and the soloist's line.
I looked around for an example and found this--imagine these chords (especially at the beginning) played behind a soloist:
The "rhythm" function is being handled by the bass and drums, while the guitar adds phrases around the (imaginary) solo line.
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Post by RickW on Dec 19, 2013 1:57:29 GMT -5
Interesting. Almost seems counterintuitive. You'd think with more instruments, you'd want the really fat six string chords to be heard.
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Post by coachdoc on Dec 19, 2013 5:54:34 GMT -5
I couldn't pre hear that if my life depended on it. It sounds wonderful even without the soloist.
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Post by aquaduct on Dec 19, 2013 8:15:21 GMT -5
Again, in most contexts I've come across, comping and playing rhythm are distinct matters, and Peter and Doc are addressing the latter. I take "comping" to mean the practice of playing some phrases or chord fragments behind/with a soloist, not in a straight-rhythm manner (though in a way that references the rhythm framework). This works best when there's a bass to nail the pulse (and the bottom voice), leaving the guitar to work around both the pulse and the soloist's line. I looked around for an example and found this--imagine these chords (especially at the beginning) played behind a soloist: The "rhythm" function is being handled by the bass and drums, while the guitar adds phrases around the (imaginary) solo line. Not trying to be too picky, but jazz is improvisational. The rhythm section's (however that is constructed) job is to provide both rhythmic and harmonic variation to feed the creative muse. Bass, guitar and piano players all comp harmony (yes, there are some great bass players that don't need piano, guitar or drums to effectively be the full rhythm section in all its glory) and everyone comps rhythm. Knowing how to do that effectively while blending with colleagues and maintaining some degree of central reference is part of the gig. If you were to be contracted for a jazz guitar gig you would be expected to know when to play straight, when to stretch out, and when to lay out (just shut up and let someone else work). It's that free form communal movement that makes it really jazz as opposed to simply playing jazzy sounding stuff. That being said, the video that Russell posted is an awesome overview of what it's all about and many of the core strategies involved. 2 note chords (only the 3rd and 7th which is where the flavor resides), reharmonization, little counter melody stabs, playing off the beat, etc. And back to the original question, it is this wide array of requirements that generally leads jazz players to be strummers (pick, thumb, hybrid, etc.) as opposed to fingerstylists.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 19, 2013 11:55:39 GMT -5
Rick--You will hear a "fat chord" approach in gypsy jazz. It's been interesting to me, after being taught (and re-taught) the Freddie Green/American-swing approach as outlined by Peter, to be told by the gypsy players that rhythm guitar wants those big chords. But then, what the second and third guitarists in a Hot Club band are doing is not "comping" in the American style; they're doing drumkit-with-harmonic-content. So the chord voicings run to sixes and nines and use four to six strings. If you watch a very traditional gypsy quintet, you'll see the two rhymthm guitarists' arms moving in absolute synch, like the driver rods on an old locomotive, chunk-chunka-chunk-chunka-chunk-chunka-chunk. (Done wrong, this comes out do-wacka-do.)
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Post by TKennedy on Dec 19, 2013 12:20:08 GMT -5
This thread is really timely for me as my little background guitar duo has changed to bass guitar and trumpet with a real live jazz guitarist that sits in most times. I used to have to support the rhythm with bigger chords and playing a pretty straight groove. Now I have to learn to comp which is new to me. Thanks for all the great info. Keep it coming.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 19, 2013 12:33:46 GMT -5
Terry--Once there's a bass in the mix, the guitarist's role becomes a bit easier in some ways and more interesting (if more challenging) in others. Your pulse-proving duties lighten up a bit (or maybe get more flexible), since the bass player ought to be taking care of that function. When the trumpet is the lead voice and the sometimes-jazz-guitar is in the mix, you might find yourself more in the rhythm-section role again, but when you're just a trio, you get to do some of those comping moves behind the trumpet and over the bass's pulse. It does require more attention than chunking out rhythm, but it's also more fun.
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Post by TKennedy on Dec 19, 2013 13:13:15 GMT -5
We did a gig Tuesday night as a trio with the trumpet and bass. I stuck my comping toe in the water and I must admit, there were some good moments and man it was fun. Thanks Russ.
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