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Post by RickW on Aug 17, 2014 0:16:01 GMT -5
Todd, our local teacher's union abhors getting tested on outcomes. We had standardized testing, not marked by the teachers, to see how kids actually did in grade 12. Teachers hated it, because it gave a good indicator as to how well they were doing. Now, if you are in a poor neighbourhood, have parents who don't parent or don't see the value, yes, it affects what's going on. But to take away the ability to see how kids are actually doing, measured against a standard, is ridiculous. But it's gone now. And everyone passes. Doesn't matter if they didn't do the work. Doesn't matter that when they get out in the real world, they will get judged on what they can do and provide.
It's all gone now. And strangely enough, the average mark has gone through the roof. Who knew how many kids were capable of 90% in school?
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Aug 17, 2014 18:31:10 GMT -5
That's why I'll never get ahead, Rick. My diagram for Iraq would look something like this: 2014 - - - - many years of letting them kill each other - - - 2030 reassess and decide "Nope." - - - - - 2050 "Everyone OK in there??- - - - - 2075 Maybe see if they need any help, assuming anyone is left. Paul, if that chart is not classified, please see if you can get it classified "Eyes Only" but not mine?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 19:31:10 GMT -5
What would you prefer, Rob? "Let's all go back in there and kick some ass!"
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 17, 2014 19:42:06 GMT -5
Testing teachers on performance is a great idea that I fully support. The difficulty lies in coming up with an accurate test. Many things besides the teacher's performance affect academic achievement. In recent years there have been great strides in coming up with tests that neutralize the other variables. I hope that continues.
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Post by RickW on Aug 17, 2014 19:52:13 GMT -5
What upsets me is that it was not being used to test their performance. No one was having their pay calculated on it. But they still didn't like it. And I guess part of the reason is what you said. But as a result of their dislike, the outcomes of the entire educational system have been rendered useless. Which I suppose is why they have SATs in the US. Because they can't trust that the kids came out of school knowing squat.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 17, 2014 20:03:25 GMT -5
Rick, I have no doubt that some of the resistance came from bad teachers who didn't want to be identified as such. There are a lot of them. But measuring education performance, by school district or teacher or any other criterion, is a lot harder than most people realize.
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Post by Village Idiot on Aug 17, 2014 20:57:55 GMT -5
Todd, our local teacher's union abhors getting tested on outcomes. We had standardized testing, not marked by the teachers, to see how kids actually did in grade 12. Teachers hated it, because it gave a good indicator as to how well they were doing. Now, if you are in a poor neighbourhood, have parents who don't parent or don't see the value, yes, it affects what's going on. But to take away the ability to see how kids are actually doing, measured against a standard, is ridiculous. I don't belong to a union and I don't know how it works in Canada, but down here teachers don't have a gripe about standardized testing, but they do have a gripe about how the results are used, which is for state and federal funding. The schools that perform lower than desired become Schools in Need of Assistance (SINA) and their funding is cut or, in the worst case, the school is closed if they don't come up to snuff within a defined time frame. In other words, if a school in a neighborhood that has high poverty, crime and unemployment rates doesn't come to par with its Beaver Cleaveresque neighbor a few districts over they are in trouble in terms of funding, and on top of that teachers are held accountable. Standardized testing is necessary, and isn't a problem, and it's good. Standardized testing being used as the only measure of student achievement is, and that's what needs to be fixed.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 17, 2014 21:02:03 GMT -5
When it comes to academic performance, demographics rule. We may not like it, but it's true.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 17, 2014 21:03:19 GMT -5
"I don't belong to a union...."
What have you got against working people?
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Aug 17, 2014 21:06:18 GMT -5
What would you prefer, Rob? "Let's all go back in there and kick some ass!" No, No! Sorry, I think I misled. I like your hands off. What I want classified is the complex first chart you posted. It made my head hurt.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 17, 2014 21:13:02 GMT -5
VI, I was joking, but I'm a fan of the NEA and it's local affiliates. I have to fight them at times but they're one of the few organized voices for public education in our area at a time when it's under incessant attack.
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Post by Village Idiot on Aug 17, 2014 21:49:05 GMT -5
I knew you were joking. I just thought for this discussion that it might be good to state that I'm not a member. I work for the State Board of Regents, which governs our three state universities, our State School for the Deaf, and our State School for the Blind. The NEA doesn't affect me, and I couldn't join if I wanted.
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Post by RickW on Aug 18, 2014 0:26:21 GMT -5
That's a crazy way to decide how to fund. The folks that need it the most get penalized. I gather those people who crafted that process failed basic logic in school.
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Post by theevan on Aug 18, 2014 6:31:04 GMT -5
Todd, our local teacher's union abhors getting tested on outcomes. We had standardized testing, not marked by the teachers, to see how kids actually did in grade 12. Teachers hated it, because it gave a good indicator as to how well they were doing. Now, if you are in a poor neighbourhood, have parents who don't parent or don't see the value, yes, it affects what's going on. But to take away the ability to see how kids are actually doing, measured against a standard, is ridiculous. I don't belong to a union and I don't know how it works in Canada, but down here teachers don't have a gripe about standardized testing, but they do have a gripe about how the results are used, which is for state and federal funding. The schools that perform lower than desired become Schools in Need of Assistance (SINA) and their funding is cut or, in the worst case, the school is closed if they don't come up to snuff within a defined time frame. In other words, if a school in a neighborhood that has high poverty, crime and unemployment rates doesn't come to par with its Beaver Cleaveresque neighbor a few districts over they are in trouble in terms of funding, and on top of that teachers are held accountable. Standardized testing is necessary, and isn't a problem, and it's good. Standardized testing being used as the only measure of student achievement is, and that's what needs to be fixed. That is So backwards. Schools In Need of Assistance beds, well, Assistance, right? Btw, teacher performance being related to testing here compares that school with itself. Ie, is it improving or declining. More sensible, yes, but even those measures are affected by shifting demographics
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Aug 18, 2014 8:22:42 GMT -5
I'd like to speak to Todd's other point. From where I sit, (in the bus drivers seat) special Ed is a dog and pony show designed to make the general public feel like we are a caring, nurturing society while utterly failing those it is designed to help. Not to mention there are untold instructional assistants who live on food stamps. And it costs a fortune to be this I affective.
Mike
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 18, 2014 8:44:13 GMT -5
Our governor has been championing a proposal to reward school districts that perform well with more money. The districts with the best test scores are in the most affluent areas, such as Scottsdale and Paradise Valley. The rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer. Happily, she hasn't been able to get this idea accepted.
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Post by RickW on Aug 18, 2014 10:18:34 GMT -5
I'd like to speak to Todd's other point. From where I sit, (in the bus drivers seat) special Ed is a dog and pony show designed to make the general public feel like we are a caring, nurturing society while utterly failing those it is designed to help. Not to mention there are untold instructional assistants who live on food stamps. And it costs a fortune to be this I affective. Mike This is one of the big bugaboos in education here, too. I have to agree to an extent. It's tough to deny parents who feel their children should "have a chance." For kids with visual or hearing problems, certainly, it doesn't mean they don't have what it takes to make it in life. But here, every kid gets to go to school. And the parents of the kids who are worst off are often the most vocal about their kids being able to go. They are either delusional about their kids ability to recover from severe mental disability and make a go of "normal" life, or simply need the respite from having to care for someone 24/7, when that care is all consuming. You have to feel for them. But the result is often the classrooms get several kids who are a massive disruption, who take a huge percentage of the teacher's time, and that time is simply dealing with problems. There are special education assistants, but there are never enough of them, and sometimes none at all. It's an ongoing war between the teachers union and government as to how many of these kids should be in a class, and how many assistants should be there. However, there is only so much money, and all the kids get to go, regardless. So, you can do the math. The major cost of a school system is salaries and benefits for teachers, (my wife is on the board of my girls school.) That's not a bad thing, it is reality. Now you add in a couple of special ed assistants per class. They make less than the teachers, but even if they make half, that's doubled the costs of that class, right there. We have a friend who is a special ed assistant. She likes her job. But she shakes her head at how the whole thing works, and how the parents think.
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Post by Village Idiot on Aug 18, 2014 21:51:32 GMT -5
The world of special education serves a wide gammut of students from those whose quality of life and keeping them out of pain and making sure they are breathing is the main consideration to those who are capable of learning some basic skills, like bathrooming and assistance in standing, which will get them placed in better group homes in the future to those who might function quite well in assisted living situations where they can hold meaningful jobs and keep their own place up with minimal assistance. The further we can move kids up that continuum, the more meaningful their lives become, and the less of a burden they will be on society when they are adults. So Special Education is important.
In the US every school gets X amount of federal and state dollars towards students in their district. Special Education students are "weighted" in a three tier system which means they bring in X amount more dollars based on how much more it will be expected to educate them annually when compared to their general education peers. In other words, and in theory (because the money is placed in a general special education fund and not allocated to specific students) those students don't cost any district more than those in general education.
But, back to Mike's point of view, which is coming from someone who is completely responsible for the health and safety of students for a fairly large part of their day, yea, I get your point, Mike. Para educators or instructional assistants or whatever you call them getting paid crap, and the whole system becoming so much more difficult for caring parents upon graduation.
As an aside, another thing I heard today that we are supposed to achieve: We are to focus on the third grade, and to close the achievement gap between those in special education and those who are not.
Really?
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 19, 2014 22:04:09 GMT -5
This made me think of this thread.
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Post by millring on Aug 21, 2014 7:18:53 GMT -5
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