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Post by TKennedy on Oct 22, 2019 16:24:09 GMT -5
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Post by david on Oct 22, 2019 21:26:33 GMT -5
Ambassador Taylor's written statement is the most substantive evidence I have read to date about the quid pro quo dealings. So let us see how Trump fans, other Republicans, FOX News and CNN spin it.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 5:45:49 GMT -5
Ambassador Taylor's written statement is the most substantive evidence I have read to date about the quid pro quo dealings. So let us see how Trump fans, other Republicans, FOX News and CNN spin it. I see an opinion in a kangaroo court. Until Democrats take a vote to start the procedure it's just another smelly asshole like all the rest of us have.
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Post by brucemacneill on Oct 23, 2019 6:14:34 GMT -5
"William B. Taylor, the senior U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, testified before impeachment investigators Tuesday that he was told the release of military aid to Kyiv was contingent on a public declaration that Ukraine would investigate the Bidens and the 2016 election"
"He was told" makes it hearsay and inadmissible, I believe.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 6:55:53 GMT -5
This is a bit of a nuance I've been trying unsuccessfully to get across. All of Washington wants Trump gone. All of it. Republican and Democrat alike. Especially the bureaucratic power base. Especially the Washington press. All of it.
All of it similarly wanted his presidential candidacy stopped. All of it. On this they were a bit torn, however. The Republicans wanted it stopped before and during the primaries, while the Democrats and their press wanted it to succeed during the primaries, but fail thereafter.
But they all still wanted it to fail. They wanted Trump to fail.
Remember when Rush Limbaugh famously said that he hoped that Obama would fail in his mission to fundamentally transform America....and the left went apoplectic? This is what Rush meant. Everyone hopes Trump fails because they fear that Trump's ideas are not good for America.
And their instinct, their impetus for such a will was that they feared that Trump was an existential threat to our government. This wasn't an evil fear. It was real. They felt the same revulsion evident among the soundholers here. They feared and they hated Trump. All of them.
Remember? He couldn't even find campaign staff among the Washington power base. He had to find them from outside Washington -- so even the staff were attacked early and often. When the institutions are entirely buttoned up as Washington is, one of the great benefits is that nobody but the insider can be credentialed -- formally or informally.
But Washington doesn't reflect American sensibilities. I know it thinks it does. I know that many of our number believe that it does.
And there has always been a parade of Washington insiders who would gladly testify against Trump in any manner, no matter how tertiary their dealings with him and his administration. And there will always be institutional solidarity willing to amplify such testimony and lend it credibility that it may or may not have of its own merit.
There is not a grand conspiracy to get Trump out. If there were, it might be easier to fight against. What there is is a united will in all of Washington to do so. I'd rather fight a conspiracy than the shared will of the most powerful people in the world and a press that shares that will.
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Post by jdd2 on Oct 23, 2019 7:34:30 GMT -5
... There is not a grand conspiracy to get Trump out. If there were, it might be easier to fight against. What there is is a united will in all of Washington to do so. I'd rather fight a conspiracy than the shared will of the most powerful people in the world and a press that shares that will. Nixon had the IQ to recognize that, and when he did, he had the grace to resign.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 7:37:22 GMT -5
... There is not a grand conspiracy to get Trump out. If there were, it might be easier to fight against. What there is is a united will in all of Washington to do so. I'd rather fight a conspiracy than the shared will of the most powerful people in the world and a press that shares that will. Nixon had the IQ to recognize that, and when he did, he had the grace to resign. Trump has long had the IQ to know what he's gotten into. Look up his comments to CPAC, I believe. He's also got the IQ and stamina to fight back.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 7:39:25 GMT -5
... There is not a grand conspiracy to get Trump out. If there were, it might be easier to fight against. What there is is a united will in all of Washington to do so. I'd rather fight a conspiracy than the shared will of the most powerful people in the world and a press that shares that will. Nixon had the IQ to recognize that, and when he did, he had the grace to resign. And I'm guessing we would be better off today if he hadn't. We let our impatience with the process forever alter the system as it was supposed to work. Now politics is all scandal all the time with the power falling to the un-elected press. imprimis.hillsdale.edu/politics-means-use-abuse-scandal/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=stripes&utm_content=10132019
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
Posts: 20,289
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Post by Dub on Oct 23, 2019 8:50:55 GMT -5
…Everyone hopes Trump fails because they fear that Trump's ideas are not good for America. Trump doesn’t seem to actually have real ideas. Only reactions to what he sees as personal affronts, which is just about everything. Anything approaching an idea is something he heard on Fox News. If he actually had any reasoned programs and carefully laid them out, he’d get a lot more support, even from Democrats and the press. Bile, slash, and burn is only going to produce the effect we’ve seen.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 9:14:31 GMT -5
…Everyone hopes Trump fails because they fear that Trump's ideas are not good for America. Trump doesn’t seem to actually have real ideas. Only reactions to what he sees as personal affronts, which is just about everything. Anything approaching an idea is something he heard on Fox News. If he actually had any reasoned programs and carefully laid them out, he’d get a lot more support, even from Democrats and the press. Bile, slash, and burn is only going to produce the effect we’ve seen. Even this is expressing the GIN that Trump hits first. And as to ideas, yes he does have them and he has been implementing them. Some conservatives dislike -- like tariffs and trade wars. Some non-internationalists like me like -- like getting out of the Middle East. Some even really utilitarian Democrats like epaul like -- like supporting our own energy production. Some those who dislike our Constitution don't like -- like appointing judges who believe the Constitution DOES say what it means and means what it says. He does have ideas. That's precisely why Washington and the press are trying to get rid of him without debating those ideas. It's the problem of Washington. For years the press and the Democrats sailed the GIN of cooperation and working across the aisle to get things done for the American people -- the very idea was that political wrangling was distasteful and thereby illegitimate. But it is the political process of wrangling that keeps us from going to literal war with each other. And the press and the Democrats want to short circuit that process. It worked at Watergate and it has been the go-to weapon ever since.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 9:16:23 GMT -5
…Everyone hopes Trump fails because they fear that Trump's ideas are not good for America. Trump doesn’t seem to actually have real ideas. Only reactions to what he sees as personal affronts, which is just about everything. Anything approaching an idea is something he heard on Fox News. If he actually had any reasoned programs and carefully laid them out, he’d get a lot more support, even from Democrats and the press. Bile, slash, and burn is only going to produce the effect we’ve seen. He actually came to the game with very clear objectives that were clearly laid out before the election for anybody who was willing to listen. Tax cuts, trade renegotiations, regulatory rollbacks, undoing as much of the damage that Obama did as he could, ending endless wars, you name it... Very specific. And for the first time in a long time, he's actually following through on his commitments. Now, it pisses off traditional DC and its sheeple but those changes carried the day for him out here in fly-over land. And the predictable bile, slash, and burn kickback from the establishment that simply can't believe they're being beat at their own game is what's producing the effects we're seeing. To them I can't help but say we won, get over it. You've got 12 months to beat him the honest way. Better get crackin'.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Oct 23, 2019 9:22:31 GMT -5
"William B. Taylor, the senior U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, testified before impeachment investigators Tuesday that he was told the release of military aid to Kyiv was contingent on a public declaration that Ukraine would investigate the Bidens and the 2016 election" "He was told" makes it hearsay and inadmissible, I believe. This statement shows that you do not understand the process. Mike
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 9:53:20 GMT -5
One of the most ironic things about politics since Trump is this: Without anyone seemingly acknowledging the flip, it is now the Democrats who see a conspiracy around every Trump corner. Meanwhile, it hasn't slowed down Democrats even a little bit in maintaining the dodge to debate that has worked so flawlessly for them for over 50 years -- that the Republicans are the ones who see conspiracies everywhere. Every Democrat caught in scandal is merely another Republican conspiracy theory. Just like with Biden, the press doesn't even investigate Democrat scandals. They merely take the Democrat's word for their innocence, interview Republicans to defend their conspiracy theory, and dismiss the whole thing...complete with the dodge that "We did TOO cover that story", and "....the investigation debunked the conspiracy theory". And yet it is the Democrat Party that has been empowering itself with conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory that will not die -- even after congressional and even FBI investigations. www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/clinton-gabbard-russian-asset-jill-stein-901593/
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Post by TKennedy on Oct 23, 2019 11:40:58 GMT -5
From the day of his inauguration he has demonstrated his severe personality disorder which makes it almost impossible for him to be an effective president no matter how appealing his agenda.
An early sign was bragging (and lying) about his crowd size at the inauguration in front of the wall of fallen heros at the CIA a couple of days after he assumed office.
Everything he has “accomplished “ would have been quickly and relatively painlessly carried out by any other Republican president that had even a remotely normal mental framework.
Judging from the Democratic field so far and assuming the economy does not tank or a world war starts, the Republicans are looking at a 2020 election with it’s legs spread for them with damn near any candidate other than Trump.
He is a street smart but very sick human being, scammed the electorate, and never had any business in a job he was totally unqualified to handle.
When will we ever figure out that you don’t hire a person to replace your aortic valve on the basis that he has made a fortune running a chain of hamburger joints.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Oct 23, 2019 11:49:40 GMT -5
"William B. Taylor, the senior U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, testified before impeachment investigators Tuesday that he was told the release of military aid to Kyiv was contingent on a public declaration that Ukraine would investigate the Bidens and the 2016 election" "He was told" makes it hearsay and inadmissible, I believe. Me: Bob told me that Joe robbed the bank. Cops: I guess that means we better talk to Bob and Joe. I am no lawyer, but I have seen "Law and Order." This is how hearsay works and, roughly, how it is working. Either William Taylor or Gordon Sondland are lying. Not sure what Taylor's motivation would be. Sondland's if fairly obvious. The damn is breaking. More and more people are talking. Hearsay won't be much of an excuse for much longer.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 11:55:41 GMT -5
Everything he has “accomplished “ would have been quickly and relatively painlessly carried out by any other Republican president that had even a remotely normal mental framework. Really? You'd think one of the 17 or so other establishment Republicans that he beat might have mentioned something about doing any of that before Trump won the nomination.
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 12:33:27 GMT -5
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Post by david on Oct 23, 2019 12:59:48 GMT -5
What does it mean when so may disregard the ambassador's statements without considering that they might be accurate? "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest."
Or as Jeff might observe, another Rorschach test.
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Post by aquaduct on Oct 23, 2019 13:03:43 GMT -5
What does it mean when so may disregard the ambassador's statements without considering that they might be accurate? "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest." Or as Jeff might observe, another Rorschach test. What does it mean when so many disregard the President's statements without considering that they might be accurate? "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong."
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Post by millring on Oct 23, 2019 13:06:43 GMT -5
What does it mean when so may disregard the ambassador's statements without considering that they might be accurate? "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest." Or as Jeff might observe, another Rorschach test. I think there's that, and there's the possibility that when Taylor said that he was told something, those who believe Trump are taking Taylor at his word.
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