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Post by epaul on Jun 3, 2020 9:06:48 GMT -5
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Post by TKennedy on Jun 3, 2020 9:09:54 GMT -5
The protests certainly are a big foot in the water as to the dangers of viral transmission and the data will be interesting in a month or so.
Around here we are surrounded by three counties with serious outbreaks, Stearns county where Russ lives is one of the biggest hot spots in MN. All three are related to spread within packing houses.
In our county which is a huge tourist destination life goes on as if nothing is wrong. Menards requires masks for customers and workers but across the street Fleet Farm is packed with unprotected customers and workers as are all the grocery stores except Aldi's. Ace Hardware where most of the staff are near or over 60 is packed with maskless workers and customers. Social distancing in all these places is being largely ignored. These "essential businesses" have been that way since the beginning of the pandemic. Visitors from the Twin Cities where masking has become ubiquitous are shocked.
In spite of the completely cavalier attitude of folks around here and the constant influx of vacationers and summer home owners our count of documented cases while rising a few each day is still only 44. My medical contacts tell me that as of last week at least, none have required hospitalization and have been dispersed throughout the county. This is still anecdotal but I am getting the impression that in larger well ventilated spaces without prolonged close contact or loud talking or singing things are probably pretty safe. I would have expected some outbreaks, amongst the staff at least, in the stores mentioned above.
There are always unexpected surprises in dealing with biological science. I am not going to second guess the initial response to what was a truly horrific kickoff to this pandemic. One that will never be appreciated by anyone that was not on the front line as a health care worker or had a loved one die too young and isolated from their family or had a prolonged and difficult recovery. You can bet Boris Johnson is a believer!!
The doubters that lurked in the shadows and armchair quarterbacked, conveniently devoid of any accountability, while someone had to make the initial tough calls may well get their chance to strut, posture, and gloat that they were"right all along". The classy ones involved in the initial response will probably be the first to admit they overreacted if it comes to that. Personally I hope that happens. Enduring the loudmouthed bleaters will be a small price to pay for a more rapid return to a "new normal".
For now I remain cautious, observant, and keep my mask in my car.
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Post by millring on Jun 3, 2020 9:19:54 GMT -5
The doubters that lurked in the shadows and armchair quarterbacked, conveniently devoid of any accountability, while someone had to make the initial tough calls may well get their chance to strut, posture, and gloat that they were"right all along". The classy ones involved in the initial response will probably be the first to admit they overreacted if it comes to that. Personally I hope that happens. Enduring the loudmouthed bleaters will be a small price to pay for a more rapid return to a "new normal". So, you don't know yet, but of this you are certain: You are classy and I am not. I get it.
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Post by millring on Jun 3, 2020 9:21:51 GMT -5
Sweden now has one of the highest death rates per capita in the world As even those who thought they were taking the correct approach assumed it would be. You'd have to not understand the approach to assume that one could guess they were wrong at this point in the history of the virus.
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Post by Marshall on Jun 3, 2020 9:23:57 GMT -5
Sweden now has one of the highest death rates per capita in the world As even those who thought they were taking the correct approach assumed it would be. You'd have to not understand the approach to assume that one could guess they were wrong at this point in the history of the virus. They also have fee healthcare for all. (Or should we call them Death Squads?)
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Post by TKennedy on Jun 3, 2020 9:26:42 GMT -5
Millring you are class personified and it is well mirrored in the understated elegance of your work! 😃
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Post by aquaduct on Jun 3, 2020 9:40:56 GMT -5
The protests certainly are a big foot in the water as to the dangers of viral transmission and the data will be interesting in a month or so. Around here we are surrounded by three counties with serious outbreaks, Stearns county where Russ lives is one of the biggest hot spots in MN. All three are related to spread within packing houses. In our county which is a huge tourist destination life goes on as if nothing is wrong. Menards requires masks for customers and workers but across the street Fleet Farm is packed with unprotected customers and workers as are all the grocery stores except Aldi's. Ace Hardware where most of the staff are near or over 60 is packed with maskless workers and customers. Social distancing in all these places is being largely ignored. These "essential businesses" have been that way since the beginning of the pandemic. Visitors from the Twin Cities where masking has become ubiquitous are shocked. In spite of the completely cavalier attitude of folks around here and the constant influx of vacationers and summer home owners our count of documented cases while rising a few each day is still only 44. My medical contacts tell me that as of last week at least, none have required hospitalization and have been dispersed throughout the county. This is still anecdotal but I am getting the impression that in larger well ventilated spaces without prolonged close contact or loud talking or singing things are probably pretty safe. I would have expected some outbreaks, amongst the staff at least, in the stores mentioned above. There are always unexpected surprises in dealing with biological science. I am not going to second guess the initial response to what was a truly horrific kickoff to this pandemic. One that will never be appreciated by anyone that was not on the front line as a health care worker or had a loved one die too young and isolated from their family or had a prolonged and difficult recovery. You can bet Boris Johnson is a believer!! The doubters that lurked in the shadows and armchair quarterbacked, conveniently devoid of any accountability, while someone had to make the initial tough calls may well get their chance to strut, posture, and gloat that they were"right all along". The classy ones involved in the initial response will probably be the first to admit they overreacted if it comes to that. Personally I hope that happens. Enduring the loudmouthed bleaters will be a small price to pay for a more rapid return to a "new normal". For now I remain cautious, observant, and keep my mask in my car. So how many children have been diddled over in Stearns county where Russ lives among all of the packing houses? Loudoun county here, where my daughter works, is the richest county in the country, full of well compensated participants in the military/industrial complex that is the center of our political universe. If these kinds of insidious consequences can happen here, certainly it can happen in the less affluent areas of the country. And you're still pretty pumped on the righteousness of shutting everything down?
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COVID 19
Jun 3, 2020 10:10:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by TKennedy on Jun 3, 2020 10:10:42 GMT -5
Sweden’s epidemiologist had the class to admit that their approach may have been flawed to some degree. Classy. If things go south and we get a bad second wave or the protests result in a huge upsurge of cases how many of the deniers will admit they were wrong? On the other side of the coin how many of the gloom and doomers will gloat? I hope we don’t have to find out.
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Post by Cornflake on Jun 3, 2020 10:33:26 GMT -5
Here, the numbers have been going in the wrong direction recently. Meanwhile, a significant minority acts as if the all-clear sign has been given. I agreed with reopening but the proviso was that we needed to maintain social distancing. We're not getting much leadership on this at the state level and certainly not at the federal level.
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Post by aquaduct on Jun 3, 2020 10:36:29 GMT -5
Sweden’s epidemiologist had the class to admit that their approach may have been flawed to some degree. Classy. If things go south and we get a bad second wave or the protests result in a huge upsurge of cases how many of the deniers will admit they were wrong? On the other side of the coin how many of the gloom and doomers will gloat? I hope we don’t have to find out. There's no need to apologize for anything if you're actually out here living with the risks of what you believe. The only thing anyone needs to apologize for is forcing someone else to live what you believe. 3 months in I'm still the control group on this board and I refuse to change. Dance on my grave if you feel you must, but I won't die a coward.
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Post by billhammond on Jun 3, 2020 10:41:48 GMT -5
Meanwhile …
RALEIGH, N.C. — President Donald Trump announced Tuesday night that he is seeking a new state to host this summer's Republican National Convention after North Carolina refused to guarantee the event could be held in Charlotte without restrictions because of ongoing concerns over the coronavirus.
Trump announced the news via tweet, complaining the state's governor, Democrat Roy Cooper, and other officials "refuse to guarantee that we can have use of the Spectrum Arena" and were not "allowing us to occupy the arena as originally anticipated and promised."
"Because of @nc_Governor, we are now forced to seek another State to host the 2020 Republican National Convention," he wrote.
Trump and the Republican National Committee had been demanding that the convention be allowed to move forward with a full crowd and no face coverings — raising alarms in a state that is facing an upward trend in its virus cases, with about 29,900 cumulative cases and 900 deaths as of Tuesday. Around 700 COVID-19 patients are currently hospitalized. Mecklenburg County, where Charlotte is located, accounted for 4,500 cases — more than double the next-highest county — and nearly 100 deaths.
"We have been committed to a safe RNC convention in North Carolina and it's unfortunate they never agreed to scale down and make changes to keep people safe," Cooper tweeted in response to the decision. "Protecting public health and safety during this pandemic is a priority."
A traditional GOP convention brings together roughly 2,500 delegates, the same number of alternate delegates and many times more guests, journalists and security personnel. Officials in both parties have been preparing contingency plans for months given the uncertainty and dangers posed by the virus and evolving restrictions on large gatherings meant to slow the spread of COVID-19.
Trump's announcement came after a call with Cooper Friday in which the president had told Cooper he wanted a traditional convention with a packed arena full of delegates — and with no face coverings to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
During the call, when Trump "insisted on a full convention arena with no face coverings and no social distancing the governor expressed concerns and suggested a scaled back event with fewer attendees," Cooper spokeswoman Sadie Weiner wrote in an email. "They agreed to continue talking about ways to have a safe convention in Charlotte."
But Cooper made clear to Trump that those conditions would likely be impossible to accommodate given the status of the epidemic in his state, and formalized that Tuesday in a letter to the RNC on the eve of a Wednesday deadline set by the GOP for assurances from Cooper that he would allow a full-scale event in August.
Cooper wrote to RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel that "planning for a scaled-down convention with fewer people, social distancing and face coverings is a necessity." And later he told reporters it was unlikely that virus trends would allow a full-capacity nominating convention for Trump to proceed at Charlotte's NBA arena.
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 3, 2020 10:45:15 GMT -5
Sweden’s epidemiologist had the class to admit that their approach may have been flawed to some degree. Classy. If things go south and we get a bad second wave or the protests result in a huge upsurge of cases how many of the deniers will admit they were wrong? On the other side of the coin how many of the gloom and doomers will gloat? I hope we don’t have to find out. Deniers is the wrong term here. I don't know anyone, even Peter, who denies that Covid exists and poses a threat. My position from the start has been that the response to the virus has been far deadlier than the virus, and probably way less effective than we think it is. I don't think we've been acting from science or reason.
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 3, 2020 10:52:37 GMT -5
PS: If it counts a gloating pointing out how a bunch of "public health" officials revealed their true priorities, and in the process, revealed how none of this can be taken as without ideological bias, then consider me gloating.
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Post by Cornflake on Jun 3, 2020 11:09:32 GMT -5
"My position from the start has been that the response to the virus has been far deadlier than the virus, and probably way less effective than we think it is."
And my view has been that no government official shut down the economy. Millions of consumer decisions in the aggregate did. That's the free market for you. You haven't changed your view and I haven't changed mine.
I wonder, though, if my view is somewhat affected by where I live. We didn't get a stay-at-home order until the end of March. The economy was already thoroughly in the tank and most people who could stay at home were doing so. My son had already been laid off from his job in restaurant supply at the airport because few people were traveling and the airport restaurants were largely deserted. The order changed very little. It could be that lockdown orders elsewhere had more of an effect on the local economy than the one here did. I still think we'd have the same economic mess if there hadn't been any such orders--or probably a worse one.
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 3, 2020 11:55:11 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Jun 3, 2020 11:56:25 GMT -5
"My position from the start has been that the response to the virus has been far deadlier than the virus, and probably way less effective than we think it is." And my view has been that no government official shut down the economy. Millions of consumer decisions in the aggregate did. That's the free market for you. You haven't changed your view and I haven't changed mine. I wonder, though, if my view is somewhat affected by where I live. We didn't get a stay-at-home order until the end of March. The economy was already thoroughly in the tank and most people who could stay at home were doing so. My son had already been laid off from his job in restaurant supply at the airport because few people were traveling and the airport restaurants were largely deserted. The order changed very little. It could be that lockdown orders elsewhere had more of an effect on the local economy than the one here did. I still think we'd have the same economic mess if there hadn't been any such orders--or probably a worse one. I have a letter in my truck from my CEO dated March 27 that says I am employed in a "critical infrastructure" industry and that, under order of the President, I am allowed to come to work regardless of local restrictions. Up the interstate at the border with West Virginia, there's a roadside sign that says I'm not allowed to go to West Virginia because of their lock down orders. Now maybe Arizona is filled with retirees who can afford to be cowards, but we aren't. And we were ordered to shut down. To flatten the curve. Only a couple weeks they promised. 3 months ago. No, the national economy was shutdown by spineless ninnies who wanted everyone to hide under the bed until... well.... sometime. And now our cities burn. Lawlessness rules. And the pious still preach social distancing, wondering why you can't maintain 6 feet between rioters throwing rocks at police. The least the self righteous could do is own the damage they've caused. It really is the honorable thing to do.
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Post by millring on Jun 3, 2020 11:58:03 GMT -5
my art fairs were all cancelled as a direct result of government orders. All concerts by my musician friends were all cancelled as a direct result of government policy.
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Post by millring on Jun 3, 2020 12:00:15 GMT -5
The press now refers to teargas as "chemical weapons". I suppose they are, but....
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 3, 2020 12:08:38 GMT -5
I suppose there is some wiggle room between "government ordered everyone to stay home" and "people chose to stay home of their own volition", but really?
No.
This happened because government told us it was the essential path required by objective, unbiased science, and because government (with allowances for differences in implementation across jurisdictions) mandated it with the force of law.
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Post by Cornflake on Jun 3, 2020 12:22:27 GMT -5
We'll continue to disagree about every aspect of that.
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