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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 14:24:11 GMT -5
Start with Governors Whitmer and Northam. OK, you've named names. Now maybe some actual language. I'm not following everybody 24/7, so I'm sure I'm missing a lot. Seriously, I'm not saying "Pics or it didn't happen," but Jeff and John offered thumbnail formulations of quite specific policy positions that I don't recall anyone putting forward. I'm serious about mapping bad ideas wherever they rise and whoever offers them.
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Post by millring on Apr 16, 2020 14:25:45 GMT -5
Start with Governors Whitmer and Northam. OK, you've named names. Now maybe some actual language. I'm not following everybody 24/7, so I'm sure I'm missing a lot. Seriously, I'm not saying "Pics or it didn't happen," but Jeff and John offered thumbnail formulations of quite specific policy positions that I don't recall anyone putting forward. I'm serious about mapping bad ideas wherever they rise and whoever offers them. I sat under fundamentalist preachers in my youth who demanded less literal readings of Scripture than you demand of colloquial speech.
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Post by epaul on Apr 16, 2020 14:28:17 GMT -5
Weird how effortlessly we've gone from "flatten the curve so hospitals aren't overwhelmed" to "no one is going back to work until a vaccine/cure is at hand". Penalty flag! Don has consistently been arguing that the virus itself is the predominant force shaping the economy's response to it. You, John, and Aqua keep trying to shift his argument back to government policy, specifically, liberal Democratic policy, being the economic tell. You have your argument, Don has his. They are based on different premises... and goals. Curiously, Jeff, in a sense you shared Don's premise, that the virus is calling its own tune, not the government, when you argued that the course and consequence of the virus would have been the same regardless of who was sitting in the White House. Technically, you said early policy would have been the same, but the sense was that the virus was dead square on its target regardless of the curlers' brooms.
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 16, 2020 14:30:50 GMT -5
Start with Governors Whitmer and Northam. OK, you've named names. Now maybe some actual language. I'm not following everybody 24/7, so I'm sure I'm missing a lot. Seriously, I'm not saying "Pics or it didn't happen," but Jeff and John offered thumbnail formulations of quite specific policy positions that I don't recall anyone putting forward. I'm serious about mapping bad ideas wherever they rise and whoever offers them. Try to keep up. Well, here we go. Kent State all over again. You can always say you heard it here first.... Protests
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Post by james on Apr 16, 2020 14:32:54 GMT -5
dead square on its target regardless of the curlers' brooms. Nifty metaphor.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 14:37:20 GMT -5
John, you and Jeff seem to have read/heard someone somewhere outline or promote something like the two policy formulations I called out. My question remains, what are those statements? Who made them? They're pretty bald, so I would not be surprised to find such positions buried in euphemism or surrounded by deniability rhetoric*. But if the argument is "what's being proposed amounts to X," then there are chains of logic and inference and implication that need to be followed. To put it more directly, I wonder how much of those statements is in the statements and how much is in the interpretation of the receivers.
* As in Trump's habit of surrounding outrageous and clearly false claims with "I heard" or "people are saying," which allows him to disclaim having made those claims himself. It's standard drill for any canny 12-year-old.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 16, 2020 14:40:41 GMT -5
Weird how effortlessly we've gone from "flatten the curve so hospitals aren't overwhelmed" to "no one is going back to work until a vaccine/cure is at hand". Penalty flag! Don has consistently been arguing that the virus itself is the predominant force shaping the economy's response to it. You, John, and Aqua keep trying to shift his argument back to government policy, specifically, liberal Democratic policy, being the economic tell. You have your argument, Don has his. They are based on different premises... and goals. Curiously, Jeff, in a sense you shared Don's premise, that the virus is calling its own tune, not the government, when you argued that the spread and consequences of the virus would have been the same regardless of who was sitting in the White House. Technically, you said early policy would have been the same, but the sense was that the virus was dead square on its target regardless of the curlers' brooms. I didn't mention Don, didn't quote Don, and wasn't thinking about Don when I wrote that. It doesn't mean any more than I said: I think we've seen a shift in attitude from "this is a regrettable action necessary to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed" to "we have to keep things locked down until we have a solution, which in practical terms means an effective treatment or a vaccine". The shutdown, in my view, was originally exclusively about overloaded hospitals. That was the whole foundation. Implicitly, that meant that the only lives that were being saved (edit: specifically by the shutdown) were those who would have otherwise been curable but died because hospital resources were not available. We've shifted. The new attitude is that so long as people are at risk of dying from this, we have to keep the shutdown in place.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 16, 2020 14:51:21 GMT -5
Weird how effortlessly we've gone from "flatten the curve so hospitals aren't overwhelmed" to "no one is going back to work until a vaccine/cure is at hand". I'd admire to see an example of that. Not to single anyone out, but there's this: That is not an isolated opinion. A perusal of social and traditional media reveals that such thinking is largely where people are at. Again, I'm not interested in picking an argument with anyone in particular. Just pointing out how thoroughly the original premise of the shutdown has been abandoned, and replaced with something effectively outlined above.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 14:53:28 GMT -5
Peter: The Michigan protests were organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition and the Michigan Freedom Fund, the latter of which has ties to the De Vos family. So the protests there were not exactly spontaneous grassroots outpourings. I'm not sure who the Virginia groups are--they seem to be Facebook-based, which means they could be anybody. Maybe someone will follow the money and report back.
And Kent State? The guns I see in the Michigan photos are in the hands of beardy guys with tactical-everything wardrobes.
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Post by Cornflake on Apr 16, 2020 14:56:55 GMT -5
"The new attitude is that so long as people are at risk of dying from this, we have to keep the shutdown in place." I really haven't heard anyone express that view. People will be at risk of dying from this for quite a while. States are still making plans to ease the shutdown as soon as it's reasonably possible, not when all risk is gone.
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 16, 2020 14:58:49 GMT -5
"The new attitude is that so long as people are at risk of dying from this, we have to keep the shutdown in place." I really haven't heard anyone express that view. People will be at risk of dying from this for quite a while. States are still making plans to ease the shutdown as soon as it's reasonably possible, not when all risk is gone. I just quoted a forum member from two days ago saying exactly that.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 14:58:53 GMT -5
Jeff: What somebody somewhere (or various people in various places) said is not public policy. A couple months ago, somebody somewhere said that the virus was a hoax or just a bad cold or would blow over. Somebody somewhere was mistaken. Meanwhile, responsible somebodies with a body of evidence in hand and experience with communicable diseases are laying out scenarios that do not amount to "no one is going back to work until a vaccine/cure is at hand."
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Post by fauxmaha on Apr 16, 2020 15:01:22 GMT -5
Jeff: What somebody somewhere (or various people in various places) said is not public policy. A couple months ago, somebody somewhere said that the virus was a hoax or just a bad cold or would blow over. Somebody somewhere was mistaken. Meanwhile, responsible somebodies with a body of evidence in hand and experience with communicable diseases are laying out scenarios that do not amount to "no one is going back to work until a vaccine/cure is at hand." I'm not talking about policy.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 15:08:07 GMT -5
Ah, so we're just talking about talk. Of which there's a bumper crop, and we all know what happens to market value when supply ramps up.
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 16, 2020 15:25:41 GMT -5
Peter: The Michigan protests were organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition and the Michigan Freedom Fund, the latter of which has ties to the De Vos family. So the protests there were not exactly spontaneous grassroots outpourings. I'm not sure who the Virginia groups are--they seem to be Facebook-based, which means they could be anybody. Maybe someone will follow the money and report back. And Kent State? The guns I see in the Michigan photos are in the hands of beardy guys with tactical-everything wardrobes. So somehow in your imperial arrogance you've just decided that because of De Vos, nothing they say or think matters. OK, despite having lived there much of my life and not really ever seeing the kind of pernicious evil out of those folks that you seem to be convinced of, you win. But Virginia is my fucking town. Or rather about 80% of the goddamn state. Yeah, we like guns. Yeah, we're fucking rednecks not worthy of your time. Gap toothed fuckers interbreeding with folks from the other side of the county line in West by God Virginia. Yeah, Facebook groups that are openly defying Northam's gun control horseshit by making 80% of the land mass in the state 2nd Amendment Sanctuaries. And sending something like 25,000 of our fellow goobers to Richmond back in the Fall to tell Northam to his shitty little sniveling face that we ain't playing along with his bullshit. And good luck keeping the state shut down until June 10. Maybe he should do what Whitmer's threatening and make us stay out of our damn fishing ponds on our own back 40. Yep, the guns are in our hands. And we know how to use them. Whitmer might want to consider that when she decides to send in the National Guard. Unlike Kent State, we'll probably be shooting back.
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Post by millring on Apr 16, 2020 15:46:44 GMT -5
It's why the surprise of Brexit. It's why the surprise of Trump '16.
You can have all the language skills to put Americans down. You can have the best ridiculers in the history of ridicule. You can own ALL the best users of the English languages. Heck, you've been given the most epic head start in the history of head starts. You are the hare and there's never been a more tortoise-y tortoise than Trump. There's never been a public figure in our history with less command of the English language. So you are going to land gut punch after gut punch after gut punch. You are going to rhetorically knock us low-class Americans out in the first round every time. And you will cheer each other and we will retreat to our cloisters, talk amongst each other ("I didn't mean that when I said that, did you?" "No, I didn't mean that when I said that either") and it would appear that lots of times we are going to vote in a way that surprises you.
You have cloistered yourselves the other way. You have made it threatening to dare to contradict you*.
* the generic "you" -- used because low class undereducated as I am, "one" sounds stuffy.
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Post by Russell Letson on Apr 16, 2020 15:57:09 GMT -5
OK, I'm out.
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Post by epaul on Apr 16, 2020 16:30:49 GMT -5
www.startribune.com/walz-joins-compact-with-midwest-governors-reopen-economy/569700832/Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz and six other governors across the Midwest announced Thursday they will coordinate their work to reopen their states’ economies amid the COVID-19 pandemic. “We recognize that our economies are all reliant on each other, and we must work together to safely reopen them so hardworking people can get back to work and businesses can get back on their feet,” the governors said in a joint statement. Minnesota will be working with Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Kentucky. Each of those states has stay-at-home orders in place. Governors in other Midwest states surrounding Minnesota — the Dakotas and Iowa — have not issued such orders and were not part of Thursday’s agreement. The governors said the compact does not mean their economies will all reopen at the same time, or that they will take steps in tandem to get businesses operating again. But they said it would be more effective to work together to phase in different economic sectors. The governors said they anticipate working with experts to take a data-driven approach to reopening the economy while protecting people from the spread of the virus. “We will make decisions based on facts, science, and recommendations from experts in health care, business, labor, and education,” their announcement said. They listed four key factors in their decisionmaking: •The states need sustained control of infection and hospitalization rates. •They must have enhanced testing and tracing. •Health care systems need to be able to handle a resurgence of the virus. •Workplaces must have best practices for social distancing. The Midwest is not the only region where governors have formed a compact to work together on reopening businesses. Seven states in the Northeast announced a similar plan a few days ago. “What we’re going to find out is what we can do for Minnesota and the surrounding states together,” Walz said. “Can we use the capacity that’s in Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, North Dakota, Minnesota, to build a block of things necessary to do it.” ... (I did some cutting, Nothing that mattered. )
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Post by epaul on Apr 16, 2020 16:36:57 GMT -5
In a separate announcement, Gov. Walz said the involved states did reach out to Gov. Northham in an effort to include Virginia in the compact, but had to give it up, "No one can work with that asshole" Gov. Walz said in explaining why the talks broke down.
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Post by epaul on Apr 16, 2020 16:38:49 GMT -5
I might have gotten Gov. Walz mixed up with Pete. I will go back and check my sources.
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