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Post by majorminor on Feb 2, 2022 14:05:50 GMT -5
But if you think mandatory vaccines are inherently tyrannical, I disagree. I had to drive about an hour after I posted that and thought it over. Let me slightly back up and qualify. I don’t think vaccines-especially fast track ones that by pass the established protocols- should be mandatory for Covid since it has a statistically minimal actual death rate. As mentioned I’m JnJ vaxed x2 so I’m no foaming at the mouth “anti” anything. Mask mandates don’t bother me. Tax incentives to vax don’t bother me. Cancelling or limiting attendance for most mass attendance events for short periods of time probably OK. Requiring better air filtration systems at tax payer expense in hospitals and schools don’t bother me. If this was air born Ebola with a 30% death rate mandate away. I guess what I’m trying to say is I personally don’t think Covid rises to the level of mandated vaccines. And Russ is probably right. People gonna people.
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Post by Marshall on Feb 2, 2022 14:28:56 GMT -5
The 800 lb gorilla I’m the room is shutting down the economy. With the polio vaccine and all the others you got in line and took your shot. But nobody’s workplace or income got shut down in the process. I expect most of the anti comes from upset over the societal reaction (over?) to the whole thing. I’m glad I don’t have an office and a business and employees at the moment. I don’t know what the hell I’d be doing. Of course the PennSquare fiasco and the dot-com bust (not to mention the 2007 market crash) were all difficult obsticals to dance around.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 2, 2022 15:01:31 GMT -5
But if you think mandatory vaccines are inherently tyrannical, I disagree. I had to drive about an hour after I posted that and thought it over. Let me slightly back up and qualify. I don’t think vaccines-especially fast track ones that by pass the established protocols- should be mandatory for Covid since it has a statistically minimal actual death rate. As mentioned I’m JnJ vaxed x2 so I’m no foaming at the mouth “anti” anything. Mask mandates don’t bother me. Tax incentives to vax don’t bother me. Cancelling or limiting attendance for most mass attendance events for short periods of time probably OK. Requiring better air filtration systems at tax payer expense in hospitals and schools don’t bother me. If this was air born Ebola with a 30% death rate mandate away. I guess what I’m trying to say is I personally don’t think Covid rises to the level of mandated vaccines. Don't stoop to apologizing for yourself in the face of folks who have mastered the art of linguistic manipulation to have their way. Virtually no one is truly "anti-vax". That's just the authoritarian redirection strategy coming out when they can't make a real argument. No, the vaccines remain unproven and they were released on an emergency basis on preliminary testing criteria. For all anyone knows, they could be the next thalidomide. It's your right to decide if you want to take that chance or not. I, like you, got the J&J- although only once- because it became practical and being a more traditional vaccine, I trusted it more. But at this point in my life there's really not a lot to lose (no, there are no potentially horribly deformed children in my future). But it remains my choice and the Boomer rube COVID panic pushers have nothing to say about it.
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Post by james on Feb 2, 2022 15:10:12 GMT -5
'Plandemic' is still BS. The vaccines do not remain unproven. Masking is a useful public health precaution. Covid dis/misinformation is still frowned upon by Proboards.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 2, 2022 15:11:15 GMT -5
'Plandemic' is still BS. The vaccines do not remain unproven. Masking is a useful public health precaution. Covid dis/misinformation is still frowned upon by Proboards. Aye aye Captain Expert! Are you going to get me banned again?
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Post by theevan on Feb 2, 2022 15:21:34 GMT -5
Precisely where in all of the above do we have mis/disinformation?
In quoting a published study that is apparently in the news?
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Post by epaul on Feb 2, 2022 15:28:34 GMT -5
An aside concerning the "experimental" nature of the mRNA vaccines. The media, and virtually everyone else, went a little overboard with the gushing wonder of these "new miraculous vaccines". It is understandable. I was gushing like a geyser, myself (so of course it was a reasonable reaction). But, in reflection, the 'gushing in wonder' may have backfired to a degree, at least with some, as new and wonderful morphed into untested and unproven in the political arena. The vaccine likely would have become weaponized, regardless, but, while wonderful, mRNA vaccines weren't new, and a more accurate and measured debut may have been helpful. mRNA was discovered in the 1960s, successfully delivered into mice cells in the 70's, tested as flu vaccines in mice in the 1990's, first used in humans as a rabies vaccine in 2006, and served as a hugely successful viral vaccine in humans during the Ebola outbreak in 2013. When Covid hit the streets, all the talk was of how many years and months it would take to develop a vaccine. But the people that actually knew something about it, the folks who had developed the successful Ebola vaccines and had been involved in mRNA research and testing for the last thirty or forty years knew that all the needed pieces were already proven and in place. I do understand that anyone who is deeply invested in the "new, experimental, and unproven" argument will only defensively dig in deeper, but for others, the timeline is interesting, and it may not be what you thought it was. The story of mRNA vaccines, regardless argument turf, is fascinating. Well worth a NOVA series and a couple dates on Science Friday. www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-wpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33498787/publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccines
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Post by james on Feb 2, 2022 15:30:27 GMT -5
Evan.
"The vaccines remain unproven". "For all anyone knows they could be the next thalidomide".
That's a start.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 2, 2022 15:34:51 GMT -5
An aside concerning the "experimental" nature of the mRNA vaccines. The media, and virtually everyone else, went a little overboard with the gushing wonder of these "new miraculous vaccines". It is understandable. I was gushing like a geyser, myself (so of course it was a reasonable reaction). But, in reflection, the 'gushing in wonder' may have backfired to a degree, at least with some, as new and wonderful morphed into untested and unproven in the political arena. The vaccine likely would have become weaponized, regardless, but, while wonderful, mRNA vaccines weren't new, and a more accurate and measured debut may have been helpful. mRNA was discovered in the 1960s, successfully delivered into mice cells in the 70's, tested as flu vaccines in mice in the 1990's, first used in humans as a rabies vaccine in 2006, and use as a hugely successful viral vaccine in humans during the Ebola outbreak in 2013. When Covid hit the streets all the talk was of how many years and months it would take to develop a vaccine. But, the people that actually knew something about, the folks who had developed the successful Ebola vaccine and had been involved in mRNA research and testing for the last thirty or forty years knew that all the needed pieces were already proven and in place. I do understand that now, anyone who is deeply invested in the "new, experimental, and unproven" argument will only defensively dig in deeper, but for others, the timeline is interesting, and it may not be what you thought was. The story of mRNA vaccines, regardless argument turf, is fascinating. Well worth a NOVA series and a couple dates on Science Friday. www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-wpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33498787/publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/the-long-history-of-mrna-vaccinesSo how many boosters are we up to now? Lie to reasonable people once and after that, everything you say is a lie.
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Post by epaul on Feb 2, 2022 15:37:48 GMT -5
How the usefulness of a booster a lie? How deeply is your head planted?
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 2, 2022 15:39:42 GMT -5
How the usefulness of a booster a lie? How deeply is your head planted? No, the fact that you need boosters at all, much less every 3 to 6 months. Clearly, my head isn't planted as deep as yours, Skippy.
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 2, 2022 16:18:53 GMT -5
Serial vaccinations are even less new than mRNA tech, whether or not they're called "boosters."
I remain puzzled by the "we were lied to" stuff. Because I'm old and fearful but still pretty reasonable, I listened closely to the explanations and advice right from the start, and what I saw was the inevitable as-far-as-we-can-tell nature of all of it--which meant that I expected some of it to change as the data came in and got collated. And I know just enough about viruses and vaccines to understand the difference between "immunity" and "resistance" and to understand why the flu shot I got ten years ago doesn't protect me against this year's flu, or why there still isn't a vaccine that stops the common cold.
So when the advice to get a booster came along, I didn't feel betrayed or lied to--I understood the kind of process we were in the middle of and got the shot. Just as I understood the changing advice about masks, about droplet vs. aerosol, about touch contagion, and so on. I just pay attention.
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Post by gbacklin on Feb 2, 2022 17:08:41 GMT -5
Evan. "The vaccines remain unproven". "For all anyone knows they could be the next thalidomide". That's a start. Has there been a published study of women delivering children after vaccinated with relation to birth defects ? Until there is, one could safely say that it is unproven. I don’t think that would be misinformation. To say for sure it will result in the same as thalidomide, would be misinformation.
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Post by james on Feb 2, 2022 18:09:03 GMT -5
Masks are very much known to reduce virus transmission and the vaccines are very much proven to be the most effective pharmaceutical weapon so far in the armoury that we have against severe illness and death from getting Covid-19. I would rather realities like those were the ones being consistently shared. That others have a history of avoiding agreement with those realities and disseminating falsehoods and conspiracy theories is unfortunate. I'll leave it at that.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 2, 2022 18:10:59 GMT -5
Serial vaccinations are even less new than mRNA tech, whether or not they're called "boosters." I remain puzzled by the "we were lied to" stuff. Because I'm old and fearful but still pretty reasonable, I listened closely to the explanations and advice right from the start, and what I saw was the inevitable as-far-as-we-can-tell nature of all of it--which meant that I expected some of it to change as the data came in and got collated. And I know just enough about viruses and vaccines to understand the difference between "immunity" and "resistance" and to understand why the flu shot I got ten years ago doesn't protect me against this year's flu, or why there still isn't a vaccine that stops the common cold. So when the advice to get a booster came along, I didn't feel betrayed or lied to--I understood the kind of process we were in the middle of and got the shot. Just as I understood the changing advice about masks, about droplet vs. aerosol, about touch contagion, and so on. I just pay attention. And I'm not as old and fearful and certainly as qualified as you to do my own thinking. The difference is that I didn't campaign to destroy you and your life to suit my fancy and ego.
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Post by millring on Feb 2, 2022 18:22:25 GMT -5
1. There is no natural immunity to Covid-19 2. Natural immunity plays no role in herd immunity 3. There will be no herd immunity to this virus 4. Natural immunity is inferior to the vaccine 5. The vaccine is risk-free 6. The young are at risk 7. The vaccinated cannot spread the virus 8. There is no treatment for Covid-19 9. It will take 5 years to develop a vaccine 10. 200 million will die
We changed the way we count deaths from the virus.
All that and more on the nightly news. Every night.
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Post by millring on Feb 2, 2022 18:24:25 GMT -5
oh...and two weeks to slow the spread. That's all we're asking to shut down. Two weeks to slow the spread. Give the hospitals a chance to catch up.
And life is just jelly beans.
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Post by james on Feb 2, 2022 18:30:12 GMT -5
Cool story bro!
*nods*
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Post by majorminor on Feb 2, 2022 19:05:51 GMT -5
This just sounds wrong said with that British accent in my head.
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Post by coachdoc on Feb 2, 2022 20:38:15 GMT -5
‘bro?’ Not something my Mum would say.
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