Some good self-criticism

[aquaduct]

Aug 17, 2023 4:49:41 GMT -5 millring said:

barnraisingmedia.com/wendell-berry-new-york-review-of-books-rural-america/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=articles&utm_content=elites&fbclid=IwAR1yr5zVNgPQzNAMbmZF2TSUyk5XdKPxhjWROk1qfwFNvjUNU2ydKdIxJkI_aem_AWl-nYOsCLJMz5A9Q7AAoaQCuh6C5Zb_Q6-vuued0rv-KWRY3hn7s82ribgiEU8x4rMLvhErI7itL7wOwRS8fRzC

Outstanding John. Can't like it enough (although I'm sure some European will be along shortly to point to some blog post from some obscure corner of the internet that castigates Wendell for being some dumb, rural right wing fascist hack. 3, 2, 1....).

As much as I've tried to remain upbeat in the current crisis, it's now looking more so than ever that another Civil War is at hand. In fact I'll put a date on it- March 6, 2024. You can only beat the rural portion of the population so long before someone figures out that they've got more guns and they don't have to take this shit anymore.

[Cornflake]

Wendell Berry is a gem. He's been making sense for decades. I largely share his views. That's one reason why I've never fit snugly in the national Democratic Party.

Alas, I'm beyond pessimistic that Berry's views will ever be embraced by any major party. That battle has been lost. Urbanization isn't going to be reversed. Treating people and land as fodder for a capitalist system isn't going to be reversed, no matter how bad the consequences. I may be wrong and I hope I am.

I hope that Berry's views don't get selectively hijacked by people looking for ammunition in the culture wars.

[John B]

I've never heard of "Barn Raiser" before, but I'll be checking it out more often.

Peter, I hope you're wrong, in large part because I do my best to remain a pessimistic optimist.

[Cornflake]

PS: John, I wasn't familiar with Barn Raiser. It looks interesting.

I read the piece by the rural pastor called "The Politics of Loving Your Neighbor in Rural America." We run into the same problems in my divided urban parish. When I was on the committee looking for a new rector, we made it clear to candidates that they had to be genuinely tolerant of political and religious views that differed from their own.

[Marshall]

Aug 17, 2023 4:49:41 GMT -5 millring said:

barnraisingmedia.com/wendell-berry-new-york-review-of-books-rural-america/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=articles&utm_content=elites&fbclid=IwAR1yr5zVNgPQzNAMbmZF2TSUyk5XdKPxhjWROk1qfwFNvjUNU2ydKdIxJkI_aem_AWl-nYOsCLJMz5A9Q7AAoaQCuh6C5Zb_Q6-vuued0rv-KWRY3hn7s82ribgiEU8x4rMLvhErI7itL7wOwRS8fRzC

Here's my gripe.

Questions of the merit or political efficacy of Mr. Burns’s program are not my present concern. I want only to notice that it addresses no rural problem. There is no interest in remedies for the bad ecological and human effects of mining, or in a farm bill that would make agriculture less destructive of land and people, or in ways to preserve the ecological integrity of our forests, or in ways to prevent the corporate destruction of the local economies necessary to support local communities—to name only a few rural needs.

I don't see anywhere in that indictment of the leftist elite, where Trump is a viable answer. He's a big business huckster that wants to make a regulation free world for his plundering.

[aquaduct]

Aug 17, 2023 8:58:00 GMT -5 Marshall said:

Aug 17, 2023 4:49:41 GMT -5 millring said:

barnraisingmedia.com/wendell-berry-new-york-review-of-books-rural-america/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=articles&utm_content=elites&fbclid=IwAR1yr5zVNgPQzNAMbmZF2TSUyk5XdKPxhjWROk1qfwFNvjUNU2ydKdIxJkI_aem_AWl-nYOsCLJMz5A9Q7AAoaQCuh6C5Zb_Q6-vuued0rv-KWRY3hn7s82ribgiEU8x4rMLvhErI7itL7wOwRS8fRzC

Here's my gripe.

Questions of the merit or political efficacy of Mr. Burns’s program are not my present concern. I want only to notice that it addresses no rural problem. There is no interest in remedies for the bad ecological and human effects of mining, or in a farm bill that would make agriculture less destructive of land and people, or in ways to preserve the ecological integrity of our forests, or in ways to prevent the corporate destruction of the local economies necessary to support local communities—to name only a few rural needs.

I don't see anywhere in that indictment of the leftist elite, where Trump is a viable answer. He's a big business huckster that wants to make a regulation free world for his plundering.

Which simply means you're an urban Democrat who hasn't ever paid attention.

Which is pretty much what the article is about.

[epaul]

I have spent a lot of time in rural America (all my life). I have spent a little time in France (part of one summer). In France I saw smaller farms with much smaller tractors. And I saw bigger villages with more shops. Both countries have farm programs that are expensive and involve various degrees of export subsidies and domestic protectionism.

France's farm programs has been geared as much as possible to supporting small farms and rural/village populations. America's has been geared towards efficiency of production and market dominance. Both spend a lot of money on farm programs. The difference in approach isn't political, it is cultural.

EU Agricultural Domestic Support: Overview
and Comparison with the United States


The European Union (EU) is one of the United States’ chief agricultural trading partners and a
major competitor in world markets. Historically, the United States and the EU have provided
significant government support for their agricultural sectors. Significant structural differences in
their respective farm sectors have helped to shape differences in their farm policy. The United
States has double the farmland base than that of the EU(over 1 billion acres versus 418 million
acres, respectively). The EU has five times as many farms, at 10.6 million with an average size of
39 acres, compared with 2 million U.S. farms averaging 485 acres. As a result, EU outlays per acre appear much larger than
in the United States, whereas U.S. outlays per farm appear much larger.

The EU’s small size of farm holdings, substantially larger number of farms relative to the United States, and larger share of rural population (27% versus 18%) have all played a role in forming EU farm policy as compared with the United States. In the United States, federal farm policy traditionally has focused on price and/or income support programs concentrated on row crops,including grains, oilseeds, and cotton, as well as sugar and dairy.

In contrast, the EU—under its Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)—provides extensive support to a broader range of farm and food products, including livestock products and fresh and processed fruits and vegetables. The EU tends to have a stronger rural development emphasis and allows frequent exemptions for identifiably small farming units from certain cross compliance restrictions and payment limitations.
...

crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46811#:~:text=The%20EU%20has%20five%20times,per%20farm%20appear%20much%20larger.

[Russell Letson]

I grew up in small-town New York State, literally surrounded by farm fields, most of which were owned by a clan of very prosperous dairy farmers. I went to school with kids from three of these families. Each of the three branches lived in rather grand red-brick late-19th-century Italianate houses sited on large working farms well outside of town.

There were at least nine cousins in these three families, ranging from five years ahead to a year behind me in school. Most of them went to the nearly-free NYS state agricultural, home economics, and forestry colleges (Cornell and Syracuse University), and only one stayed on the farm after high school. Of the other farm kids I knew, most did not return to farming, either. And these were all quite successful farms. The less-successful rural families (many of which were on my school bus route) were not farmers but blue-collar workers in the various light and medium industries that shared the local economy. And the local political environment outside of the cities (Syracuse, Buffalo, less so Rochester) was overwhelmingly and emphatically Republican. (My great-grandfather was a Mohawk-valley Republican bagman a few hours east in Canajoharie.)

There are plenty of reasons young people leave the farm, mostly having to do with the demands it makes. When the kids of well-to-do farmers (our neighbors bought a new car every three years, notably a Buick convertible) don't want that life, it says something about the effort-to-reward ratio. And these farms were not located in some rural backwater--the bright lights and fleshpots of Syracuse were 17 miles away.

The urban-rural divide is nothing new--I can point to a country-versus-town song from 17th century England, way before "How Ya Gonna Keep 'em Down on the Farm After They've Seen Paree?" Some of us don't even need Paree--just someplace with running water, paved roads, and quick access to a medical facility.

There are plenty of Berryan sentiments to approve of (the pathologies of industrial-scale agriculture, for example), but like many prophets, there's also a side of him that might get up a fellow's nose. And I know personally (in meatspace, not here) one Berry enthusiast whose rural, composting-toilet attitudes mask a nasty, thin-skinned, backstabbing personality. There's nothing magical or human-nature-transforming about living in the sticks.

[epaul]

Average farm size in my home county is now around 1500 acres. When I was kid, it was around 300.

[epaul]

The main tractor would have 60 hp pulling a 12' cultivator. The average primary tractor now would have 300 hp pulling a 50' cultivator.

[Cornflake]

"There are plenty of Berryan sentiments to approve of (the pathologies of industrial-scale agriculture, for example), but like many prophets, there's also a side of him that might get up a fellow's nose. And I know personally (in meatspace, not here) one Berry enthusiast whose rural, composting-toilet attitudes mask a nasty, thin-skinned, backstabbing personality. There's nothing magical or human-nature-transforming about living in the sticks."

I agree.

[epaul]

I don't think any farm program can stand up for the long term against technology and a global marketplace.

But, the EU's farm policies (invested public money) at least has been putting up a fight. The US's farm policies, by dint of having no effective caps on individual (and corporate) subsidies received, has actually encouraged larger and larger farms. If the subsidy is so much an acre, economy of scale is going to win. A $50 subsidy on 50 acres of wheat is a nice $2500. Pay for some fertilizer. That same $50 an acre subsidy given to the guy planting 5,000 acres of wheat is enough for him to buy your farm.

Bottom line, our farm subsidies are, at best, just slowing, cushioning, the inevitable transition to larger and larger operations. Which matters. But, the dollars per farm in the farm program could be effectively capped (and protected against the workarounds and loopholes purposefully left in the final drafts). Which would then matter more.

Bottom line, France's farm programs are fighting the same losing battle. But, at least their farm program dollars are fighting the beast instead of feeding it.

[james]

I read the letters and points of view submitted in response to Berry's letter. Various quite interesting thoughts and opinions.-

barnraisingmedia.com/response-and-responsibility-wendell-berry-letter-to-the-editor-new-york-review-of-books/

(It's a shame that the articles in the NYRB which Berry's letter discuss are firewalled).

[epaul]

Berry has an axe to grind against the course of modern ag in this country. And he has an axe to grind against those pointy-headed elites.

But, pointy-headed elites have never shaped farm policy. Big city liberals have never shaped farm policy. Farm policy via the current Farm/AG program, whatever it is over any given period, has always been crafted in the halls of congress by farm state representatives.

There is always some yipping from the inconsequential edges of Congress, but the compromise has been long standing. As long as the Farm Bill contains the Food Stamps program and few other things like WIC and milk for school kids, those pointy heads from those big cities are happy to let the representatives, D and R alike, from farm states, do whatever they want with the Farm/Ag Bill (in consultation with those that matter in Ag industry, of course)

(and corn, wheat, cows, and beans are what matter. If you are growing broccoli and spinach on a couple acres, good luck, you are on your own)

If you are upset with American Agriculture for whatever reason, the pointy-headed liberals from those big cities and fancy east coast colleges have never had anything to do with it. Berry is barking, but it's the wrong tree.

[Dub]

Aug 17, 2023 18:37:51 GMT -5 epaul said:

Berry has an axe to grind against the course of modern ag in this country. And he has an axe to grind against those pointy-headed elites.

But, pointy-headed elites have never shaped farm policy. Big city liberals have never shaped farm policy. Farm policy via the current Farm/AG program, whatever it is over any given period, has always been crafted in the halls of congress by farm state representatives.

There is always some yipping from the inconsequential edges of Congress, but the compromise has been long standing. As long as the Farm Bill contains the Food Stamps program and few other things like WIC and milk for school kids, those pointy heads from those big cities are happy let the representatives, D and R, from farm states, in consultation with those that matter in Ag industry, do whatever they want with the Farm/Ag Bill.

(and corn, wheat, cows, [hogs], and beans are what matter. If you are growing broccoli and spinach on a couple acres, good luck, you are on your own)

If you are upset with American Agriculture for whatever reason, the pointy-headed liberals from those big cities and fancy east coast colleges have never had anything to do with it. Berry is barking, but it's the wrong tree.

Fixed it for you.

[billhammond]

That's why the U of Iowa teams are called the Hogeyes.

[epaul]

And while there are fewer farms and farmers in the economy that supports my little home town of Newfolden, there is more money floating around for everyone than when I was a kid. More money, nicer houses, nicer cars and bigger boats.

When I was a kid, there were some good farms on good land that did very well, but there were a lot of crappy little hardscrabble farms that struggled to provide squat. Now, thanks to the jobs provided by Digi-Key and Artic Cat and other businesses in the region that are doing pretty well, there are decent jobs to be had, and money to spend that doesn't depend on having had a grandfather who settled on a nice patch of clay-bottomed loam rather than a gravel ridge that goes dry every summer.

The old days of farming are romanticized, but for many throughout the many years, farming has been a damn tough dirt poor way to get by.

[epaul]

All in all, it's a mixed bag with no applicable soundbites.

[epaul]

Other than, perhaps, "It's the economy, stupid".

Some rural places are doing well. Some are doing poorly. People are leaving much of rural America, but good spots with jobs or that hold something that is desirable to others, they are consolidating and growing.

The Red State/Blue State, Urban/Rural divide has a simpler answer than the tortured reasoning of the "oh so caring" pontifications of pointy headed elites. Rural areas vote heavily Republican because they are filled with white people. White people in general vote Republican. White males without college degrees vote for Republicans in about the same percentages no matter where they live. And if you filter out those with jobs dependendent on a government paycheck, college educated ones do as well. It can be awkward to discuss, but it is the case.

And it is cultural identity, not racism. Culture is huge and tricky. So huge, you could wonder how calls of racism can miss such a huge target, but they do. Some folks express wonder and shake their heads at how those Evangelicals can support Trump. Flip the brain switch and ask "what is it about those progressives that cause an Evangelical to hold their nose and vote for Trump." It's culture.

It's culture. It is where you were born, how you were raised, what you were taught by parents and soaked up through friends and neighbors. It isn't hard and fast and immutable, but it certainly is. And it isn't how many deplorables or left behinds there are in a district that determines whether it goes Red or Blue, it's the ratio of whites to non-whites. It's culture. What seems and feels right. What doesn't. Culture. And none are immune.

Exceptions abound. I'm dealing with statistical patterns. And they seem pretty clear.

www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/an-examination-of-the-2016-electorate-based-on-validated-voters/

[epaul]

[if it seems that I am all over the place on some of these issues, that's because I am. Trump makes it easy for me because he is an id-driven pathological liar and he is recklessly feeding a dangerous and damaging fire with his lies. But, as for the issues themselves, big and complicated they is, too big for me to get around. So I nibble at various edges.]