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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Aug 14, 2023 9:32:19 GMT -5
“ And mankind is nowhere near an apocalyptic end.”
Tell that to the locals in Maui.
Mike
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Post by RickW on Aug 14, 2023 9:48:18 GMT -5
Not the same thing, but something along the same vein is how hog farmers have been keeping the smell of their confinements down by piping anything odoriferous deep into the ground. I've always wondered about the long-term effects of that. Especially in places like the midwest where you rely on groundwater.
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Post by RickW on Aug 14, 2023 9:57:51 GMT -5
I doubt very much that the world is going to come to an apocalyptic end. But there’s certainly an excellent chance of a massive reduction in population. 40 percent of the world’s human population gets water from the Himalayas; the glaciers are shrinking, and available water is growing less and less. There will be a tipping point there. If it gets warm enough to flip/redirect/kill the major ocean currents, that will be sudden, deep changes in a lot of places that grow food. And then there is the continuing melt of the ice caps, which at some point are going to cause flooding of a lot of coastal plains that grow huge amounts of food and hold billions of people.
So, no, the world is not going to suddenly explode in flames and we’re all going to die. But for certain areas, (as Mike said, see Hawaii — and a lot of folks in Canada and the American west have seen a lot of it as well,) there will be sudden, very deadly consequences.
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Post by coachdoc on Aug 14, 2023 9:57:52 GMT -5
One of Neal Stephenson’s books was built around the search for and implementation of this concept. As are all his books it was a good read.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 14, 2023 11:38:58 GMT -5
“And mankind is nowhere near an apocalyptic end.”
I hope that's right and I think it probably is. But we've never conducted this experiment on the atmosphere before. It's possible that we would go into a feedback loop where it gets hotter and that makes it get hotter.
No one knows but it seems more likely that a lot of food production will be disrupted with very sad consequences. It's too bad that we knew about this for thirty years without doing anything. But that's humanity. I'm cheered that we are now actually doing a number of things and that alternative energy is making a lot of headway.
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 14, 2023 11:43:05 GMT -5
I doubt very much that the world is going to come to an apocalyptic end. But there’s certainly an excellent chance of a massive reduction in population. 40 percent of the world’s human population gets water from the Himalayas; the glaciers are shrinking, and available water is growing less and less. There will be a tipping point there. If it gets warm enough to flip/redirect/kill the major ocean currents, that will be sudden, deep changes in a lot of places that grow food. And then there is the continuing melt of the ice caps, which at some point are going to cause flooding of a lot of coastal plains that grow huge amounts of food and hold billions of people. So, no, the world is not going to suddenly explode in flames and we’re all going to die. But for certain areas, (as Mike said, see Hawaii — and a lot of folks in Canada and the American west have seen a lot of it as well,) there will be sudden, very deadly consequences. And western governments are relying on the fact that no rational analysis of exactly how much more of natural disasters are happening (hint: none, actually the trend is generally reducing them) so that you voluntarily cede more power to them. Which only ever continues to empower the wests enemies. One wildfire in Maui, while tragic, is no reason to lose our collective minds.
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 14, 2023 11:46:54 GMT -5
“And mankind is nowhere near an apocalyptic end.” I hope that's right and I think it probably is. But we've never conducted this experiment on the atmosphere before. It's possible that we would go into a feedback loop where it gets hotter and that makes it get hotter. No one knows but it seems more likely that a lot of food production will be disrupted with very sad consequences. It's too bad that we knew about this for thirty years without doing anything. But that's humanity. I'm cheered that we are now actually doing a number of things and that alternative energy is making a lot of headway. Yeah, thank heaven we're finally able to control the weather. By the way, can the geniuses behind that dial down August here in Virginia?
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Post by John B on Aug 14, 2023 12:47:08 GMT -5
And western governments are relying on the fact that no rational analysis of exactly how much more of natural disasters are happening (hint: none, actually the trend is generally reducing them) so that you voluntarily cede more power to them. Which only ever continues to empower the wests enemies. Just so I'm sure, are you saying that "no rational analysis" shows that the rate or number of natural disasters is increasing? As in, the number of incidents is NOT increasing as compared to, say, 50 years ago? I'm just picking a random "long time ago" without any particular agenda in mind.
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Post by james on Aug 14, 2023 13:07:18 GMT -5
Some recent similar false claims addressed - "Extreme weather events are becoming more severe, not less""CLAIM: Climate, weather or meteorological events that we would classify as “extreme” have declined in severity over the last 20 or 30 years.
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Scientific research has documented how events including extreme precipitation, droughts and forest fires have become more frequent and severe as a result of climate change. While the impacts of climate change vary across the globe, scientists agree that overall, human-caused warming is supercharging these extreme events.
THE FACTS: A podcast clip shared on Instagram this week falsely claims that extreme climate, weather and meteorological events “are actually declining in severity....."
.....But scientists who study climate patterns say these kinds of extremes are aggravated by climate change — and are becoming more severe, not less....."
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Post by Marshall on Aug 14, 2023 13:27:10 GMT -5
“ And mankind is nowhere near an apocalyptic end.” Tell that to the locals in Maui. Mike That sure was horrible. But I don't like the "Climate Change' moniker being applied to the horrible incident. A hurricane past south of the Hawaiian Islands. High winds ensued. The likely cause of the fire, I've heard, was an old faulty electric line that blew over and started a fire close to an urban area. High winds drove the fire through the town that was ill equipped to handle and even "warn" it's residents of the fast movie tragedy. Very awful occurrence, for sure. But it had nothing to do with Climate Change. Hurricanes have happened for all of Hawaii's human existence. Human error (faulty electric system) started the awful ball rolling.
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 14, 2023 15:58:19 GMT -5
And western governments are relying on the fact that no rational analysis of exactly how much more of natural disasters are happening (hint: none, actually the trend is generally reducing them) so that you voluntarily cede more power to them. Which only ever continues to empower the wests enemies. Just so I'm sure, are you saying that "no rational analysis" shows that the rate or number of natural disasters is increasing? As in, the number of incidents is NOT increasing as compared to, say, 50 years ago? I'm just picking a random "long time ago" without any particular agenda in mind. Yes.
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Post by brucemacneill on Aug 14, 2023 17:30:37 GMT -5
Just so I'm sure, are you saying that "no rational analysis" shows that the rate or number of natural disasters is increasing? As in, the number of incidents is NOT increasing as compared to, say, 50 years ago? I'm just picking a random "long time ago" without any particular agenda in mind. Yes. Due to this thread I killed some tine before Scotch O'clock looking at graphs of climate change on the mid-Atlantic where I live. What I saw was that there are no accurate measurements before 1978 that NOAA can use and based upon their charts nothing has happened here but maybe a less than 1 degree F rise in average temperature since 1880 and that may be because of satellite measurements starting in 1978 and previous manual drop the thermometer into a bucket of ocean water measurements. They claim the ocean is a little more acidic than it was 100 years ago but it's still alkaline. The sea level may be a few inches higher but the land masses around here have been sinking since the end of the glaciers. I'm not worried except that living 30 feet above mean high tide I bought this place assuming I could put in a boat dock by now.
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 14, 2023 20:02:24 GMT -5
"Very awful occurrence, for sure. But it had nothing to do with Climate Change. Hurricanes have happened for all of Hawaii's human existence."
I'll quibble a bit, Marshall.
Yes, hurricanes have been around for a long time, but there's pretty reliable evidence that climate change is affecting their intensity in at least some cases. Hurricane Harvey walloped Houston in 2017. "In the months after Hurricane Harvey, scientists found that climate change most likely made the torrential rainfall that inundated Houston during and after the hurricane much worse, as warmer air holds more moisture that is then unleashed as precipitation. The rainfall total was 15 percent to 38 percent greater than it would have been in a world that was not warming, according to estimates from two studies published in 2017." New York Times. I read about this in more detail at the time. As I recall, scientists looked at the variables that affect storm intensity. They plugged in the numbers for those variables that would have obtained maybe sixty years ago. They found that Harvey would have been a significantly less destructive storm.
That doesn't mean the fires on Maui were caused by climate change. I think it's a little premature to say that climate change had no effect. Causation can be complicated.
Heat has been around in Arizona for a long time, but I'm pretty sure the scientists will conclude that climate change played a part in this awful summer.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Aug 15, 2023 9:26:23 GMT -5
I don't like the "Climate Change' moniker The severe drought that west Maui has experienced for the last two years is directly attributable to climate change, and helped to fuel the fire. The hurricane that was 600 miles south of the islands usually downgrades to a tropical storm but warmer ocean temps mean stronger storms. So far, there is no known cause for the origin of the fire, so blaming powere lines is premature. The Baldwin house, the oldest structure in Lahaina, was started in 1834. So for close to two hundred years, Lahaina did just fine. It just didn’t survive climate change. Mike
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Post by Marshall on Aug 15, 2023 10:56:23 GMT -5
OK, then. That sounds more rational. I appreciate it. Hard to believe Hawaii would have a drought. But I've never been there, so what do I know?
I have been to Curacao in the Caribbean, just 60 miles north of Venezuela, and that's a desert Island. So, it's hard to make accurate assumptions based on no knowledge.
Still, I don't like using "Climate Change" as an excuse without the backup reasoning. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that electric power will be the ultimate starter, as it was in Paradise CA. So, then power companies need to step up more to protect the citizenry better.
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Post by jdd2 on Aug 15, 2023 17:35:40 GMT -5
Long ago in south kona, on the road leading down to miloli'i, there'd be a fire started by the mowing equipment being used along the roadsides--the metal itself getting hot, or that and it sparking when it hit the rocks. There were no power lines there then, and everyone is still on catchment, so not much water to use on it. And tho the industry is now dead and gone, it was once common to burn cane fields at harvest (cane = grass). Besides the drought, Lahaina is also classic lee/dry side.
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Post by RickW on Aug 15, 2023 23:24:31 GMT -5
Come to bc, the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, where the droughts have gotten so bad that both the fire risk and the lack of water for farming and simply living are at critical levels everywhere. The fires start from anything, most often from lightning, but even sparks from train wheels on tracks set them off. We are in the small farming community of keremeos today and as we sat down for dinner waves of smoke from two large fires burning south of here obliterated the remaining hours of daylight. This is not an isolated incident anymore, this is just the way it is here; the landscape is tinder dry. We just lost another town up North. The permafrost is melting up there from the increased temperatures, and the roads built on them, which is pretty much all of northern Canada, are buckling and sinking. Whatever the hell you believe or don’t believe is causing it, the climate has taken a hell of a turn these past years.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 16, 2023 7:39:26 GMT -5
I wrote a song a couple years ago. I've started playing it out more:
Where Eagles Fly
Hear the howling wind high up in the wires 3 days on the ground clearing under brush, Ahead of the fire
Bitter smoke burns the eyes High above in the sky An eagle flies
3 years of a drought, Earth is parched and dry Comes a heavy rain. River overflows Threatening lives
We look up and wonder why High above in the sky An eagle flies
(Instrumental Bridge)
You go to the store, I’ll go for a ride Standing at the pump, filling up the cars and checking the tires
We go on with our lives Without a thought for the skies Where eagles fly
The world is changed before our eyes We look up and wonder why No eagle flies.
The songs starts 1:00 into the vid.
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Post by drlj on Aug 16, 2023 7:41:49 GMT -5
Carbon Suckers are the much less popular version of Tootsie Roll Pops. They have a center nobody wants to reach.
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