J, Sidhe, or other nylon types - VL Etude #1

[RickW]

I've been messing with the Villa-Lobos Etude #1 for many years. As my life arm is partly incapacitated right now, I'm doing a bunch of right hand stuff - and one thing I'm going to nail is VL #1. My teacher many years ago told me about sitting watching TV, practicing that pattern over and over again.

So, my question is this - doing not too bad using I M and A on G, B an E strings. But I'm much faster using just P and I for the whole thing. So, what's normal for this? Either, or using all three fingers? What do you guys do?

And I still have a hell of a time with that insane run in the middle.

[theevan]

It's been awhile since I played the #1. I use, if I'm remembering correctly, p-i-p-i-p-i-m-a-m-a-m-i-p-i-p-i and back to the root p. I checked you tube for a slower rendition. Here's one, not played too well, but slow enough to see. www.youtube.com/watch?v=brBjY9H1yis&feature=related

Best way to tame the m & a is to practice it Reeeeeaaaal slowly. It should take you at least 6 minutes to practice it once through.

[RickW]

Yeah, that's what I've been doing. I'm also playing it on steel, with a thumbpick, and it's tough to not have the thumbpick overpower the fingers when I get going at any speed. That's another reason I like just P and I, as it tends to be a more even tone.

Just watched Segovia play it, and he of course does it using the 'standard' method:

[theevan]

For sausages at work, check Segovia:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0SvC3NG6tI&feature=related


Many put a rhythm into. Maybe that's proper. I see it as a study and don't attempt to turn it into music. I strive (well, strove) for metronomic, tonal and dynamic evenness throughout. It's not a tough piece, if you play it Reeeeaaaalllllll slow. If it never comes up to speed, so what?

[RickW]

I have always loved it - I have Parkening playing it, and it has this gorgeous, cascading, rush to it when it's done nicely.

The other good reason for musing m and a is for the workout. As you said, it is a study, meant to develop strength.

[Greg B]

I haven't played that piece in nearly 25 years since that's when I had my accident with my right hand. For some reason I've always considered it "cheating" to play it P I P I all the way through. But then again, I'm missing my little finger on my right hand and my ring finger doesn't work too good either. So if I can't cut myself a break and play it P I P I then . .. well . . . not sure where I was going with that.

In any case, what we have here is the standard "Classical Guitarist Dilemma" where you're told to play it one way which is "Correct" and "Proper" but is also "Incredibly Difficult And Damn Near Impossible To Play". As opposed to simply getting the job done in the way that produces the best performance for you and your instrument.

Segovia would yell at master class students who played a piece with different fingerings than what he transcribed. "Why are you doing that" he would scream, "Do you think you understand the piece better than me?!" Part of that could be his incredible knowledge of the instrument, and part of that could be his incredible ego. For example, in my book of Sor's 20 studies it's Segovia's picture, not Sor's on the cover. And Segovia had the audacity to renumber the studies in a different order than what the composer had intended. For reasons like this I take Segovia's opinions with a large grain of salt.

I would say that unless you're trying to get accepted into a music conservatory go ahead and play it P I P I or with a combination of P I and P M. But play the descending line in the middle of the piece I M I M I M.

[RickW]

Isn't the descending line all slurs?

[j]

Rick,

although the "prescribed" fingering (more likely than not, Segovia's own rather than Villa-Lobos') is indeed very useful towards building up m-a independence and facility, you can (and should) use the Etude to practice ANY kind of RH fingering. I'm flatpicking quite a bit these days and I practice it slowly with a pick to improve my string crossing. Also, I'm on a long-term goal to bring my 'c' (pinky) up to a decent level, and as such I spend some time on V-L 1 with the following fingering:

p-i-p-m-i-a-m-c (ascending) a-c-m-a-i-m-p-i (descending)

basically the thumb travels between strings 6 and 5 while the four fingers take one of the remaining top strings each. Incidentally, it looks like Villa-Lobos favored the use of the pinky and had to be "talked out" by Segovia of encouraging such an "atrocity" (yet another utter display of ignorance and stubbornness by the otherwise great Spanish guitarist...)

So, no harm in doing it all "p-i". It should prove a great workout towards incorporating p-i runs in other pieces (like renaissance lute rep, for instance)

[RickW]

Thanks, J - it's all what you're trying to achieve, isn't it? The classical world seems to be getting a bit more flexible - poor Maestro S. is getting a bit beaten up these days....

I've done a lot f p-i stuff with the thumbpick. I find it a great way to incorporate a fast single note run into an otherwise fingerpicked piece, because you don't have to drop your wrist.

Flatpicked? That's some pretty fast flatpicking... ...

My right pinky is a mess from a football accident at 19, so won't be trying that bit soon, but it looks interesting.

[j]

notice I said "practice it slowly with a pick"

S L O W L Y.

It's some pretty sluggish flatpicking, really.

[Don Clark]

I, like Dru, haven't touched that one for years.....only for me more like 35. But it's one I think I'll get back out, having heard it again here. I have to agree with Rick on Parkening's playing of it - also considering it was on a way earlier album I have that I got when I did my classical studies in '70 - '72. Flowing, "cascading" was a good description. Mine was very mechanical (easy to get it that way) and I used it as an exercise too for a long time.

The Segovia master class comments sound like the Chapdelaine session.

Rick.....if I recall that part, they are slurs. But like I said, that was ages ago.

[billhammond]

Wow, as you guys check in one by one on this topic, it is quite remarkable how many serious classical players we have on board.

[Russell Letson]

Later we can hear from the silly ones.

Curly, Larry, get ready.

(Ain't no Moe.)

[RickW]

Mar 9, 2009 16:03:14 GMT -5 j said:

notice I said "practice it slowly with a pick"

S L O W L Y.

It's some pretty sluggish flatpicking, really.

Heh heh - well, if you get it up to speed, would like see a video of that.... ;D

[sidheguitarmichael]

As per J, I'd say practice different patterns. I use the one as written at the wine bars, however.

That said, the way to get the pattern going (IMHO, of course) is to practice one full beat at a time. By this I mean, practice the first 4 sixteenth notes, then the next, then chain those two together, then the third beat (4 more sixteenths) and finally the last.

A major (and common) problem is having the open e at the end of beat 2 and the 2nd 16th note of beat 3 jump out like a friggin' brick wall. Another common issue is to have a hiccup between a, m and a at the same point.

The solution is to count it out and accent the down of beat 3 (with the m finger, as written), the second strongest beat. If you get used to the physical sensation of that finger and beat being strong, then the rest is "just add water" (or time, as it were). It's not enough to just play slow and even; you've got to know where beat three is *exactly* and then play is slow and even...

In no time, it'll be rolling, as you start to feel the thing groove in 2 (1st half measure, then 2nd half, like a clock pendulum).

So far as the run in the middle, I've got a great fingering that Ben Verdery taught me, but I'm going to have to contemplate how, exactly, to translate it to the internet for you...

[RickW]

Thanks, Michael - I fall I think into the hiccup - I stumble on the a/m/a, or it's just too quiet to get that nice flow. Again, part of it is the fact that I'm using the thumbpick - I've really been working on balancing out the tone between thumb and fingers. Still have that tendency, especially when playing something fast, that when I play harder with the fingers, the thumb does the same.

I'll try your counting, and see how that goes. A is definitely weakest, and no secret there - it just doesn't get the regular workout the rest do.

Any additional info on that run would be great. Coming down is not that much of a problem for me, though I slow down when I F#7 at the bottom. It's the going up that's the problem. I think I have a pretty good fingering, going from the open E minor to a three note eminor at the 7th fret, with the first finger on the B on the high E. That slides up nicely to 11th fret, and the first slur, and bounces on down from there. Just... must .... practice. I notice that a lot of renditions on Youtube, the players just slow down. Parkening flew through, and it just sounded so good.

But if you have a different fingering, I'd be interested.

[sidheguitarmichael]

BTW, Rick, if you are talking about the recording "in the spanish style", I've heard that the editing was legendary.

On the other hand, he had to play all the notes at one point or another, and the final result is killer.

Yes, try looping just one group of sixteenths at a time (beat) until it clicks and then add the other three, one at a time. I think it helps.

Let me figure out how to document this run up to the slurs for you. More later.

(BTW, I'm not saying that I have the one true path on that either. I'd be open to other's ideas on that middle run as well. The more, the merrier.)

[RickW]

I've heard that about him before, that there was lots of editing.

BTW, I'm going to be away for a few days, so if you do have the time to document that, PM, please, so I know. Otherwise it'll be buried.....

So, what I do for the runup is the E minor, with the second and third fingers on, of course, the A and D strings, second fret. Once I have picked past the D string, I can abandon that, and slip up to the 7th fret. I play an E minor chord, third finger on E on the G string, second finger on G on the B string, first finger on B on the E string. So, I play the G/E/B/G. Then I can slide the first finger up to the 11th fret, and do the first slurs. The slurs I do pretty well all the way through with first and second fingers. Still working on how to best transition to the F#7 - I think the last slur on the low E, I'll probably flip to using the 2nd and 3rd fingers, and leave the first finger to hit the barre on the second fret.

Hope that made sense. From a mechanical perspective, it works pretty well. From a sound perspective, not sure yet.

[Deleted]

I don't have anything to add about how to play it as J and others gave you the best advice. I just wanted to say I love this study! I think it also sounds nice played slowly --not too slow but not up to tempo which can be something like 144 or so. I did all of the VL Preludes and loved them too. I was studying w/ a teacher from Brazil and we got pretty into VL for awhile there. It's great music and good training.