Gloomy number

[Cornflake]

There are some songs I'm moved to write but can't imagine performing for an audience. This may be one of those.

My granddad had a ranch once
He couldn’t make it pay
The city had the good jobs
His children moved away
I went back to see it
It isn’t there today

And when the streets are empty
I hear the madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean much
It doesn’t last for long

In a dirty city
My dad did what men do
He did his best to feed us
He saw his dreams fall through
When he died I wondered
What it adds up to

And when the streets are empty
I hear the madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean much
It doesn’t last for long

I went to see some ruins
Abandoned long ago
I could taste the dust
I felt a hard wind blow
Silence had the last word
As I turned to go

And when the streets are empty
I hear the madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean much
It doesn’t last for long

[Marshall]

Do you work these tunes with a melody in mind ? Just wondering. Your lyrical structures seem to stand on their own. As I read them, though, I seem hear your voice doing "Folk Song Rapper."

[Cornflake]

Yeah, Marshall, the melody evolved with the lyrics, which is usually the case for me. I'm still tinkering with the melody and chord progression but the basics were there from the start. The last two lines of the "verse" in this one are actually a pre-chorus.

[Dub]

I confess I don't spend much time in the songwriting forum. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of writing songs. I need to write songs but either I have nothing to say or I just don't know how to go about it.

But, 'Flake, your songs often speak to me. I couldn't really perform most of them but I enjoy your performances a great deal. This particular song, though, got to me in a kind of close up way that made me wish I could sing a song like that.

I got to thinking about your song, without any clue as to melody or time, and in my head it came out more like this...

My granddad had an old dirt farm
But he couldn’t make it pay
The city had the good jobs
His kids all moved away
I went back to see the place
Just the other day
It was just a stone foundation
The old home had blown away.

And when the streets are empty
I can hear the madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean too much
And it don’t last for long.

It may be my predilection for bluegrass phrasing and timing but my re-phrasing would seem to be in line with a lot of modern singer/songwriter folks as well.

'Flake, you're an experienced song writer so I'd bet you considered and rejected phrasing like mine. How did you come to get it into its final form? What were you hearing?

Thanks,

- Dub

[Cornflake]

Dub, thanks for the comments. Moving someone is what it's all about.

The music to this one came with the lyrics and I guess the music was dominant, because I adjusted the line length to fit it. So I didn't consider and reject other approaches. If I were a bluegrasser it would probably have turned out differently.

Why don't you change it and do it your way?

[Dub]

So what is the title of this number... Gloomy Wednesday? I think April 25th was a Wednesday. Or maybe Madman's Song?

If I changed the phrasing, would you help knock off the sharp edges? Remember, I have no clue. I'm just a bull in a china shop here. I hope you don't think this is too cheeky. I don't mean to offend.

A crude re-phrasing of the whole song might go something like this...

My granddad had an old dirt farm
But he couldn’t make it pay
The city had the good jobs
His kids all moved away
I went back to see the place
Just the other day
It was just a stone foundation
The old home had blown away.

Refrain:
And when the streets are empty
I can hear the madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean too much
And it don’t last for long.

In a dirty noisy city
Papa did what men must do
He did his best to feed us
But he saw his dreams fall through
When he died I had to ask myself
What caused him to pursue
And I wondered as we buried him
What it adds up to

(refrain)

I went to see some ancient ruins
Abandoned long ago
I could almost hear the voices
Of those who built them so
I could taste the dust of ages
I felt a hard wind blow
But silence had the last word
As I turned away to go

(refrain)

How far is this from your original intent?

How can my revisions be made acceptable?

I know this is like asking if one of your children wouldn't look better with their nose in the back of their head. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to figure things out.

- Dub

[Cornflake]

Dub,

It's fully consistent with what I had in mind. It might be better. We can't know 'cause you can't hear my music and I can't hear yours. (Mine's mostly built around C / D / Em - / ) I call it Madman's Song but any handle will do.

I see no need to change anything you did except I think this clunks a little:

When he died I had to ask myself
What caused him to pursue....

Pursue needs an object. You might tinker with those lines and see if there's something that's a smoother fit.

I'm flattered that you liked it enough to make it yours.

[Dub]

cornflake said:

... except I think this clunks a little:

When he died I had to ask myself
What caused him to pursue....

Pursue needs an object. You might tinker with those lines and see if there's something that's a smoother fit.

We'll yeah, it clunks a whole lot. I originally had something else but it didn't rhyme. I know it needs a lot of work.

I think "so" kind of clunks too. Again, just going for a quick rhyme. But see, I don't really know how to do this stuff.

Hmmmmmmm,

- Dub

[Marshall]

Nice work, Dub. Houses don't blow away, though. Not unless it's a hurcane or tornado song.

But I like your sentiments. Nice twist on Don's thoughts.

You both ought to put music to them.

[Cornflake]

Dub, I must not have read your post that well the first time. I'll be glad to tinker with your version. I'd love to have you do it and hear how it goes. More later.

Later: I think I understand the timing that's in your head but you may read this and decide I didn't.

My granddad had a hard-luck farm
He couldn't make it pay
The city had the better jobs
His kids all moved away
That place stayed in my mem'ry though
So I went back one day
There was nothing there to see
It all had blown away

And when the streets are empty
I can hear the madman's song
It doesn't seem to mean much
And it doesn't last for long

In a gray and dirty town
My dad did what men do
He worked all day to feed us
And he watched his dreams fall through
I watched his body fail him
As the debts and shadows grew
I wondered as we buried him
What living adds up to

And when the streets are empty
I can hear the madman's song
It doesn't seem to mean much
And it doesn't last for long

I went to see an ancient ruin
Abandoned long ago
Dust was what I tasted and
I felt a hard wind blow
I wondered what they'd dreamed of
But of course I'll never know
And silence had the last word
As I turned away to go

And when the streets are empty
I can hear the madman's song
It doesn't seem to mean much
And it doesn't last for long

[Dub]

'Flake, your improvements are wonderful. I'm liking this song more and more all the time. You clearly do understand my cadence. I love most types and styles of music but the music I perform is mostly rhythmic. I've always felt that rhythm, cadence, and timing are critical to a song.

This particular song I hear as:

da | DAH-da DAH-da DAH-da DAH
da DAH-da DAH-da DAH____

and I'll sing it with rhythmic delivery and probably a trio with high tenor on the refrain.

I always try to think about how adjacent syllables are sung even when they aren't in the same word. And although single syllable words may sometimes be sung as two syllables to honor the cadence, two syllables will often sing better. That idea was the basis for some of the changes I made.

So when you write:

It doesn't seem to mean much
And it doesn't last for long.

I have to imagine singing either mean or much as a two syllable word. That was why I put it down as "It doesn't seem to mean too much," I was just trying to insert a syllable for cadence.

And you're right, "doesn't" is a much better choice than "don't," I must have been thinking the two doesn'ts were too close together for repetition but I think I was wrong about that.

In the first verse, "Mem'ry though" fills the cadence but "though, So" seems a little hard to sing. What about "mem-o-ry" to fill the cadence and omit "though?" Ending the line on an eeee sound will sing well and that line doesn't need to rhyme.

I sure do like this song.

- Dub

[Cornflake]

Dub, I understand exactly what you're saying and I can see I did get the drift of how you were hearing it.

I owe you. You salvaged this song. Your comments made me try the song as a bluegrass number. That wasn't right for me but it quickly morphed into something akin to Pancho and Lefty--and very rhythmic, keeping your structure. I like it much better than my prior version, which was slow and minor-y and too dark to bear playing. Now it's major-y with some key minor chords. I can imagine playing it now and probably will. Many thanks.

The lyrics for my revised version are different because of where the music settled, and because I want to stick with the details of my own biography:

Granddad had a cattle ranch
He couldn’t make it pay
The city had the better jobs
His kids all moved away
I thought of it as home though
So I went back one day
What I saw was hard to take
I wished I’d stayed away

And when the streets are empty
I hear a madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean a lot
It doesn’t last for long

In a gray and dirty town
My dad did what men do
He worked all day to feed us
And saw his dreams fall through
His body started failing
As the debts and shadows grew
I wondered as we buried him
What it adds up to

And when the streets are empty
I hear a madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean a lot
It doesn’t last for long

I saw some Anasazi ruins
Abandoned long ago
There was dust for tasting
I felt a hard wind blow
I wondered what they’d dreamed of
It didn’t matter though
Silence had the last word
As I turned to go

And when the streets are empty
I hear a madman’s song
It doesn’t seem to mean a lot
It doesn’t last for long

[Dub]

That's terrific, 'Flake. I can't wait to hear it. Will you perform it for us in September?

- Dub

[dradtke]

In September, I want to hear both you guys do it.

[Cornflake]

Yeah, Dub, I want to hear what you do with it.

[davidhanners]

I read the various iterations of lyrics, and while I like the verses and the first line of the chorus, I get thrown by the "madman" reference. "Madman" is a powerful word and it just seems to come out of nowwhere in this case.

The song is about normal people doing the best they can under difficult circumstances, but nobody in the song goes crazy. I hear "madman" and while part of my brain pictures an old wino geezer on the street signing, it just doesn't seem to fit the rest of the song.

Maybe if the line were something like, "...I hear a ghostly song" it would go down easier with me than "madman." Then again, I'm not sure a word like "ghostly" would support the last two lines of the refrain; in essence, those lines are about futility or things that are transient (i.e., doesn't mean a lot and doesn't last that long) but I just have trouble getting over the word "madman." I hear "madman" and I think of Hitler or Pol Pot or Idi Amin.

But that's just me, and I have proven time again how little I actually know....

[Cornflake]

David, that strikes me as a very fair observation. I was somewhat concerned about that when I wrote the song.

When I used "madman," I was thinking of the incoherent babbling you can sometimes get from crazy people on the street. I meant for the phrase to suggest something senseless and meaningless. As I was writing it, I though of MacBeth: life's "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I realized that was exactly what I meant. Maybe the Bard's lines were echoing subconsciously in my brain when I wrote the chorus. I thought about changing my words to "idiot's song." That phrase seemed to suggest stupidity more than incoherence, though, so I dropped the idea.

I'm seldom cryptic and I didn't mean to be here, but maybe for some folks the chorus won't communicate what I was trying to get across. I'm not sure I can come any closer.

[davidhanners]

Then I'd say use the word "idiot." Seriously. Ask yourself, WWJD? -- What Would John (Prine) Do?

He'd probably use the word "idiot," and he'd be happy if people got the Shakespeare reference. Shakespeare and the bible are the last refuges of we songwriting scoundrels. Or "us" songwriting scoundrels. Where's Hammond when you need him?

[billhammond]

davidhanners said:

Then I'd say use the word "idiot." Seriously. Ask yourself, WWJD? -- What Would John (Prine) Do?

He'd probably use the word "idiot," and he'd be happy if people got the Shakespeare reference. Shakespeare and the bible are the last refuges of we songwriting scoundrels. Or "us" songwriting scoundrels. Where's Hammond when you need him?

< us >

[Cornflake]

John Prine would never write this song, so I don't want to do what he would do.