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Post by Doug on Jan 28, 2015 10:55:51 GMT -5
Different things. I don't hear you making big noise about cowards in the military. While I might not think you know what you are talking about in war, I also wouldn't think you know what you are talking about if you were telling how to splice genes.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 28, 2015 11:05:14 GMT -5
Different things. I don't hear you making big noise about cowards in the military. While I might not think you know what you are talking about in war, I also wouldn't think you know what you are talking about if you were telling how to splice genes. If you saw a pair of my three-legged jeans you'd know just how wrong you are about me. But you kind of dodged the question on Moore. Unless your answer is that only non-military who agree with you are entitled to an opinion.
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Post by Doug on Jan 28, 2015 11:11:06 GMT -5
Different things. I don't hear you making big noise about cowards in the military. While I might not think you know what you are talking about in war, I also wouldn't think you know what you are talking about if you were telling how to splice genes. If you saw a pair of my three-legged jeans you'd know just how wrong you are about me. But you kind of dodged the question on Moore. Unless your answer is that only non-military who agree with you are entitled to an opinion. Having an opinion is one thing slandering a whole group of people is something else. BTW if you wear a pare of 3 legged jeans at next IJ I'll revise my opinion of your qualifications in that regard.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 28, 2015 11:14:00 GMT -5
My Magic Google Wand seems to be broken. I see a lot of links to why the sniper is a hero, not a coward. Links that seem like they might be more objective, neither supporting or offering a counter argument all seem to be in video format which does me no good here at work.
Does anybody here know why Moore called Kyle or maybe just snipers in general cowards?
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Post by Doug on Jan 28, 2015 11:16:15 GMT -5
My Magic Google Wand seems to be broken. I see a lot of links to why the sniper is a hero, not a coward. Links that seem like they might be more objective, neither supporting or offering a counter argument all seem to be in video format which does me no good here at work. Does anybody here know why Moore called Kyle or maybe just snipers in general cowards? Moore explained that he had an uncle killed by a sniper in WW2 and that's why he called snipers cowards. Reason but not excuse.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 28, 2015 11:19:54 GMT -5
If you saw a pair of my three-legged jeans you'd know just how wrong you are about me. But you kind of dodged the question on Moore. Unless your answer is that only non-military who agree with you are entitled to an opinion. Having an opinion is one thing slandering a whole group of people is something else. BTW if you wear a pare of 3 legged jeans at next IJ I'll revise my opinion of your qualifications in that regard. Ok, but fair warning first. People have been alarmed when they see that the third leg is filled. Just so you know. On slandering a whole group of people, I agree, based on what I know, which is nothing. The coward comment seems unnecessarily harsh. I don't know what Moore was thinking. I can see making an argument that if there was a movie about a sniper from ISIS, we'd all be calling him a coward. I could probably come up with more justifications, but I'm not defending Moore. I'm just curious about what he meant by the comment.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 28, 2015 11:21:16 GMT -5
Does anybody here know why Moore called Kyle or maybe just snipers in general cowards? Hate to be redundant, but.... Moore is an asshole, a big one.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 28, 2015 11:21:21 GMT -5
My Magic Google Wand seems to be broken. I see a lot of links to why the sniper is a hero, not a coward. Links that seem like they might be more objective, neither supporting or offering a counter argument all seem to be in video format which does me no good here at work. Does anybody here know why Moore called Kyle or maybe just snipers in general cowards? Moore explained that he had an uncle killed by a sniper in WW2 and that's why he called snipers cowards. Reason but not excuse. I was typing while you were posting. Thanks for the explanation. In that case, I agree with you. The comment was out of line.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Jan 28, 2015 11:23:40 GMT -5
Does anybody here know why Moore called Kyle or maybe just snipers in general cowards? Hate to be redundant, but.... Moore is an asshole, a big one. Peter, you can be anything you want to be. If you hate being redundant, then do something about it. And remember, baby steps.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jan 28, 2015 12:11:56 GMT -5
There's nothing obscure about what Moore said or how he later explained it--this link on the first page of Google results summarizes the early part of the story: www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/entertainment/feat-michael-moore-sniper-tweet/There's also a Snopes unpicking: www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/moorekyle.aspNow, Moore might well be engaging in the familiar rhetorical tactic of apophasis or paralepsis, in which an accusation is made in a way that seems to deny that it's an accusation. Moore reports that his father thought that snipers are cowards--a variation on the "my daddy always said" way of distancing the speaker from an opinion. It might be a cynical tactic, or it might be a signal that Moore is uncomfortable enough with the opinion to require some distancing. In view of Moore's good works with vets, I wouldn't dismiss that possibility. (And yes, he can be an asshole. That is not always a complete and comprehensive account of a person and his works. There have been suggestions that Kyle was a bit of an asshole, too.) The public reaction to the movie is interesting but predictable, ranging from "this is the truth about Iraq" to "this is pro-war propaganda" to "hey, it's only a movie." I confess that I find the last of these the most naive, if only by a nose.
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Post by majorminor on Jan 28, 2015 12:30:52 GMT -5
See even Russell thinks Moore is an asshole.
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Post by Russell Letson on Jan 28, 2015 12:48:48 GMT -5
The thing about assholes is their universality. We all have one, and nearly every one of us has at some time been one.
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Post by xyrn on Jan 28, 2015 21:10:37 GMT -5
There will be anti-redundancy classes soon at your local Y. They'll be meeting every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday from February until May at 4, 5:15 and 6:30pm. Attendance to all sessions IS mandatory as the material presented at each class will be identical. There will also be a take home workbook and, subliminal cassettes that are handy as they are on a continuous loop and never need rewinding. This award winning series is called "The Repeatable Way Toward Overcoming Redundancy" and if you call in the next 15 minutes you get a second program at no additional charge (just include separate P&H)!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 6:36:30 GMT -5
It is simple: If the sniper is ours, he's a hero. If the sniper is theirs, he's a coward. Conversely, if you're on the other side, your snipers are heroes, while our snipers are cowards.
Glad I could clear that up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 8:53:23 GMT -5
Great point, David. I'm not sure why we think people who decided to fight against us are all "The Bad Guys." What the hell would YOU do if, oh, Russians came over, threw out the government, regardless of how much you hated it, and killed some of your family and friends in the process? I reckon there would be some resistance.
As for "accurately portraying the affects of war on the family?" Horse crud. You can't do that in a movie. Besides, as some have pointed out in some of the more balanced critiques running around the ipterwebs, there are more families involved here than just the American one. Again, horse crud.
I won't go see it, period.
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Post by dradtke on Jan 29, 2015 9:12:57 GMT -5
There will be anti-redundancy classes soon at your local Y. They'll be meeting every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday from February until May at 4, 5:15 and 6:30pm. Attendance to all sessions IS mandatory as the material presented at each class will be identical. There will also be a take home workbook and, subliminal cassettes that are handy as they are on a continuous loop and never need rewinding. This award winning series is called "The Repeatable Way Toward Overcoming Redundancy" and if you call in the next 15 minutes you get a second program at no additional charge (just include separate P&H)! I prefer the sequel, "The Repeatable Way Toward Overcoming Redundancy Again."
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Post by Doug on Jan 29, 2015 11:23:09 GMT -5
Great point, David. I'm not sure why we think people who decided to fight against us are all "The Bad Guys." What the hell would YOU do if, oh, Russians came over, threw out the government, regardless of how much you hated it, and killed some of your family and friends in the process? I reckon there would be some resistance. As for "accurately portraying the affects of war on the family?" Horse crud. You can't do that in a movie. Besides, as some have pointed out in some of the more balanced critiques running around the ipterwebs, there are more families involved here than just the American one. Again, horse crud. I won't go see it, period. If you don't dehumanize the enemy you create more screwed up troops when they come home. Doesn't matter who you are fighting they are less than human.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 12:14:04 GMT -5
I haven't seen the movie. I've only read parts of the book. But I did read the voluminous pretrial discovery provided by both sides in Ventura v. Kyle, et al before I left Minnesota. As a journalist with no dog in the fight, I came away from reading that discovery with the opinion that Kyle was a troubled man with a penchant for telling tall tales. (Keep in mind that much of the pretrial discovery is material that, for one reason or another, never goes before a jury.) I don't know the protocols the military uses for determining and confirming a sniper's kills, but without a witness (or two) I would have trouble taking Kyle's word for it.
In his post-service life, there were instances where Kyle just made stuff up. The Ventura punch was one of those. There was almost zero credible evidence to support Kyle's version of events and it simply didn't have the ring of truth. Yeah, Ventura is a larger-than-life character and has a lengthy history of saying outrageous things. But I could never find an instance where he said anything remotely similar to "the SEALs deserve to lose a few." He just simply wouldn't say something like that. He is part of that brotherhood (as a UDT) and saying something even remotely like that would blacklist him for the rest of his life. Yeah, he criticizes the government every chance he gets (he and Doug would no doubt get along) but he would not criticize the people we send to carry out failed foreign policy.
As for the movie, Eastwood may talk all he wants about how he meant the film to be a nuanced view of the toll violence takes on the people we ask to be violent. I get what he's saying and if his movie had spurred a real national discussion about the mental health resources available for returning soldiers, I'd say more power to him. However, the American film-going public doesn't care about nuance and subtlety. As we've seen from social media, many of them interpret it as a movie about a good 'ol American boy who goes out and kills those bad ol' Arabs and, by the way, all Arabs are bad because, gosh darn it, you just can't tell the good ones from the bad ones so why take a chance on letting them get away? Americans want black-and-white heroes and villains, and even if the film doesn't depict them that way, that is how they are thinking when they walk out of the theater. Chris Kyle: American Hero. All Arabs: Villains.
Like I said, if Eastwood's film had launched a discussion about how we take care of people we ask to do a very dirty job, about the over-reach of American foreign policy, about the moral questions that arise in modern asymetric warfare, I'd run for president of the Clint Eastwood Fan Club. But that isn't the discussion it has sparked.
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Post by Doug on Jan 29, 2015 13:03:55 GMT -5
I don't know how the SEALS keep the record but the Marines were tough on confirming. Carlos Hatchcock's 93 confirmed didn't include another 100 plus that were probables. I'm guessing the total is correct and that there are a lot of probables too. BTW I spent some time with Carlos and he was a nice little guy.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 29, 2015 13:09:11 GMT -5
I don't know how the SEALS keep the record but the Marines were tough on confirming. Carlos Hatchcock's 93 confirmed didn't include another 100 plus that were probables. I'm guessing the total is correct and that there are a lot of probables too. BTW I spent some time with Carlos and he was a nice little guy. From what I understand Kyle's record was confirmed kills that somebody else witnessed. I think his total claimed was close to twice that.
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