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Post by jdd2 on Feb 12, 2016 17:44:13 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 18:42:26 GMT -5
Fear of a vengeful God has been a very useful concept in every society throughout history. How do you get someone to behave properly when no one is watching? Have you read Julian Jaynes? There is a fascinating theory.
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Post by james on Feb 12, 2016 18:53:44 GMT -5
There are many other species that co-operate and proliferate and behave quite well. Perhaps that's not a particularly pertinent point. A great many people 'behave' when nobody is watching, who have no belief in Gods, vengeful or otherwise.
Edit - I have only just now read a little about Julian Jaynes in Wikipedia.
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Post by millring on Feb 12, 2016 19:13:05 GMT -5
When nature does it, it's called "karma", and on some level almost every thinking, feeling, sentient human being either believes it or wants to believe it. Nobody wants to believe that the bad guy actually wins in the end.
But attach a deity to it and suddenly the very thing that everyone acknowledges wanting (and almost assumes to be so as with like some universal but impersonal "goodness" winning out) suddenly becomes and unreasonable, capricious, mean-spirited god of religion.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 12, 2016 19:15:06 GMT -5
I wonder what they meant by "Humanity's". It can merely refer to the human species but in a more poetic way it can refer to the way civilized people interact as in human versus inhuman treatment. IMHO, the former would expand due to need and want whereas the latter might expand due to fear of a vengeful God. The experiment, I think tilts more to the latter.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 12, 2016 19:24:25 GMT -5
If you found out tonight, without a doubt, that there was no God, would you murder someone tomorrow? Would you steal your neighbor’s car and/or rape his daughter?
I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way.
Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity.
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Post by fauxmaha on Feb 12, 2016 19:29:44 GMT -5
I won't steal my neighbors car. Its easier and more palatable to vote for the government to take his stuff and give it to me.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 12, 2016 19:41:02 GMT -5
If you found out tonight, without a doubt, that there was no God, would you murder someone tomorrow? Would you steal your neighbor’s car and/or rape his daughter? I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity. But, if most humans naturally were kind to each other, would they have invented vengeful Gods? Without bad people there would have been no need for vengeful Gods, would there?
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Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 12, 2016 19:50:06 GMT -5
If you found out tonight, without a doubt, that there was no God, would you murder someone tomorrow? Would you steal your neighbor’s car and/or rape his daughter? I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity. But, if most humans naturally were kind to each other, would they have invented vengeful Gods? Without bad people there would have been no need for vengeful Gods, would there? I’m no expert, but I think we’ve always had vengeful Gods. The major religions all have Gods that have done some pretty spiteful things when angry. The Greek Gods weren’t known for their sense of humor. Pagan Gods required blood sacrifices. Being kind to each other is part of compassion, and it’s hard wired into us. In tribal societies it was a survival mechanism. You wanted to be remembered as being kind, helpful, compassionate, or whatever, so that when you were ill or needed help, others would be more inclined to come to your aid. Religion doesn’t make us be kind. In fact, if you look you’ll find a lot of evidence to the contrary. But religion does help define expectations. It gave us “laws” explaining exactly what we were not supposed to do, and gave us examples of what we should do.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 12, 2016 19:57:06 GMT -5
I won't steal my neighbors car. Its easier and more palatable to vote for the government to take his stuff and give it to me. Finally. I was afraid you’d never come into the light. Now go forth and propagate. Um, some more.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 12, 2016 20:11:57 GMT -5
But, if most humans naturally were kind to each other, would they have invented vengeful Gods? Without bad people there would have been no need for vengeful Gods, would there? I’m no expert, but I think we’ve always had vengeful Gods. The major religions all have Gods that have done some pretty spiteful things when angry. The Greek Gods weren’t known for their sense of humor. Pagan Gods required blood sacrifices. Being kind to each other is part of compassion, and it’s hard wired into us. In tribal societies it was a survival mechanism. You wanted to be remembered as being kind, helpful, compassionate, or whatever, so that when you were ill or needed help, others would be more inclined to come to your aid. Religion doesn’t make us be kind. In fact, if you look you’ll find a lot of evidence to the contrary. But religion does help define expectations. It gave us “laws” explaining exactly what we were not supposed to do, and gave us examples of what we should do. I haven't done philosophy in awhile but some French I think philosopher said "God created man and in return man created God" or something like that. Whether God is an omniscient being, an alien from another planet with a higher technology than we have or a fiction devised by man, doesn't matter, our perception of God is of our own creation and many different societies created different perceptions of God. I think it was convenient for the powerful who made the laws to blame the laws on God, then just use their power to enforce the laws in the name of God, welcome to religion. How benevolent or vindictive God was depended upon the needs of the powerful who were going to act in the name of God, so different religions have differing expectations of God's will. Bad as they may be, the "Civilized" religions we mostly live with in the west tended toward the benevolent until angered God-types. I prefer them. They tend to spread a kinder society when they spread and I think that's what the experiment was getting to, not just an underlying natural kindness of the human species, which I don't think exists without laws at least originally said to have come from God.
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Post by james on Feb 12, 2016 20:20:16 GMT -5
By the way, happy Darwin day everybody!
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Post by Doug on Feb 12, 2016 20:20:30 GMT -5
Just MHO but I think people are basically good because it's to their advantage. Mutual self interest.
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Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 12, 2016 20:21:22 GMT -5
I knew that sooner or later I was going to have to admit that I didn’t read the link. I’ll read it later.
I still say that compassion is hard wired, a part of our genetic makeup. It explains why every single major religion is based on variations of “Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.” That’s not an accident or coincidence. The different Gods didn’t all get together and agree on the one overarching rule. It came from us.
Compassion does not come from religion, and it’s not something that’s exclusively human. Animals display compassion too. Go to the zoo and watch the monkeys groom each other. Our compassion is an evolutionary survival mechanism, and it found its way into our various religions.
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Post by david on Feb 12, 2016 21:52:11 GMT -5
I just don't know what to think. I am waiting for epaul to weigh in.
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Post by lar on Feb 12, 2016 23:39:36 GMT -5
I started the article and got to the point where they were discussing the results of the research. For those who didn't read the article the research was based on what was described as an economic game. The participants were given 2 cups and some coins. They were to imagine one of the two cups and then based on the result of a roll of dice the participant was instructed to put a coin into the cup that had been imagined or the other cup.
When all was said and done the researchers concluded that some or all, I'm not sure which, of the participants cheated. If one of the cups was imagined, how would the researchers know that cheating had taken place.
I stopped reading at that point because I began to suspect that the data derived from the experiment was significantly flawed.
I suspect that that there are a whole host of reasons people are nice to one another. In the Popeye cartoons people were nice to Bluto because he'd beat the hell out of them if he wasn't. Real life works that way sometimes too. So much for the vengeful God thing.
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Dub
Administrator
I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Feb 13, 2016 0:49:31 GMT -5
“Oh, sinner, do not stray, From the straight and narrow way, For the Lord is surely watching what you do…” - John R. Butler
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 13, 2016 1:54:08 GMT -5
Don't look at me--I've given up theological discussions for Lent.
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Post by millring on Feb 13, 2016 6:41:53 GMT -5
Don't look at me--I've given up cosmetics for Lent.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 13, 2016 8:02:45 GMT -5
Like Lar I started to read it and got to the second paragraph where they mentioned that it was a peer reviewed paper in the social sciences. The taste of bullshit rose so fast in my throat I had to stop before I lost my breakfast.
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