|
Post by coachdoc on Feb 13, 2016 8:34:42 GMT -5
Self interest comes first to our consciousness, then our immediate family, then our village, city, state, country, world. Where do you draw the line and say it is not in our best interest to care for the slightly larger group? Edgar Mitchell all of a sudden had to look at the whole world as his special interest group.
|
|
|
Post by brucemacneill on Feb 13, 2016 8:46:17 GMT -5
Self interest comes first to our consciousness, then our immediate family, then our village, city, state, country, world. Where do you draw the line and say it is not in our best interest to care for the slightly larger group? Edgar Mitchell all of a sudden had to look at the whole world as his special interest group. For me, it's when it stops being in our best interest.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 13, 2016 9:14:18 GMT -5
I think I'm going to change my guitar strings today.
Mike
|
|
|
Post by brucemacneill on Feb 13, 2016 9:19:31 GMT -5
I think I'm going to change my guitar strings today. Mike Probably in your best interest but why not change everyone's strings?
|
|
|
Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 13, 2016 10:47:51 GMT -5
it is in my best interest to let everyone reach self realization with regard as to when to change their strings. Besides, some of you weirdos play plastic carbon fiber guitars.
Mike
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 10:49:20 GMT -5
If you found out tonight, without a doubt, that there was no God, would you murder someone tomorrow? Would you steal your neighbor’s car and/or rape his daughter? I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity. We're talking thousands of years of civilization to get to the point you're talking about. Useful concepts come and go, some are abandoned some are retained. So what's the other way? Did it appear in a vacuum with no philosophical background that pertained to religion? As Hitchens said, I'm an atheist but it's the Christian God that I choose not to believe in. As for your last statement ... please. Talk about oversimplification.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 11:01:00 GMT -5
There are many other species that co-operate and proliferate and behave quite well. Perhaps that's not a particularly pertinent point. A great many people 'behave' when nobody is watching, who have no belief in Gods, vengeful or otherwise. Edit - I have only just now read a little about Julian Jaynes in Wikipedia. Well, sure there are but they tend to live in small groups, packs, hives etc. Jaynes theorized, In the Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, that there was an evolutionary step between packs of humans and humans being able to split off from the pack and construct towns, cities etc. that existed beyond the limits of control a pack leader can personally enforce. I always wondered why God stopped talking to people. I mean it was talk, talk, talk to everybody and anyone, all the time! It's not provable, of course, but Jaynes makes an interesting case. He theorizes that the bicameral mind, the two sides of the brain that is, is the source of gods talking to humans. It's an oversimplification but, in order for human society to evolve beyond packs, somehow incorporating the will of the leader, one side of the brain told the other what to do and it appeared as the voice of God. This type of mind no longer exists and that is why no one hears from God anymore. At least not the way they used to. I do his theory no justice in a paragraph, however. Good read.
|
|
|
Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 13, 2016 11:06:26 GMT -5
If you found out tonight, without a doubt, that there was no God, would you murder someone tomorrow? Would you steal your neighbor’s car and/or rape his daughter? I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity. We're talking thousands of years of civilization to get to the point you're talking about. Useful concepts come and go, some are abandoned some are retained. So what's the other way? Did it appear in a vacuum with no philosophical background that pertained to religion? As Hitchens said, I'm an atheist but it's the Christian God that I choose not to believe in. As for your last statement ... please. Talk about oversimplification. I don’t understand your question. Did what appear in a vacuum? As for your reaction to my last statement, I apologize. I didn’t expect to find anyone here who fell into that category. Maybe I could have found a better way to say it other than saying that you have no integrity.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 11:19:10 GMT -5
We're talking thousands of years of civilization to get to the point you're talking about. Useful concepts come and go, some are abandoned some are retained. So what's the other way? Did it appear in a vacuum with no philosophical background that pertained to religion? As Hitchens said, I'm an atheist but it's the Christian God that I choose not to believe in. As for your last statement ... please. Talk about oversimplification. I don’t understand your question. Did what appear in a vacuum? As for your reaction to my last statement, I apologize. I didn’t expect to find anyone here who fell into that category. Maybe I could have found a better way to say it other than saying that you have no integrity. You said, "I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity." I asked did this appear in a vacuum? No one falls into that category. You created a straw man and successfully beat it down.
|
|
|
Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 13, 2016 11:27:42 GMT -5
I don’t understand your question. Did what appear in a vacuum? As for your reaction to my last statement, I apologize. I didn’t expect to find anyone here who fell into that category. Maybe I could have found a better way to say it other than saying that you have no integrity. You said, "I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity." I asked did this appear in a vacuum? No one falls into that category. You created a straw man and successfully beat it down. Okay, I can agree with that. My first impulse would have been to say the same thing, that no one behaves because they fear a vengeful God, but I thought you were claiming otherwise with your earlier post: I must have misunderstood your point in your first post.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 11:36:51 GMT -5
You said, "I think religion is a way of establishing morals, ethics and expected behaviors for a society. It’s a way of teaching right from wrong. But it’s not the only way. Behaving properly when no one is watching is reward in itself. We honor ourselves when we act with the integrity we expect of others and ourself. You can do those things with a God, or without one. For most people, it makes no difference. For those few who behave only because they fear a vengeful God, they have no integrity." I asked did this appear in a vacuum? No one falls into that category. You created a straw man and successfully beat it down. Okay, I can agree with that. My first impulse would have been to say the same thing, that no one behaves because they fear a vengeful God, but I thought you were claiming otherwise with your earlier post: I must have misunderstood your point in your first post. I guess what I'm saying is that all human activity and thinking is part of an evolutionary process. We didn't learn to run overnight. There was a lot of crawling first. Better?
|
|
|
Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 13, 2016 11:40:33 GMT -5
Who knew? We’re in complete agreement.
|
|
|
Post by millring on Feb 13, 2016 13:53:54 GMT -5
I don't fear a vengeful God. I fear a just one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 10:21:15 GMT -5
I don't fear a vengeful God. I fear a just one. I hope for a merciful one and that there is just one. I think it would be extremely confusing to be an ancient Greek or a Hindu, at least for me. Although it may afford way more curse words.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 10:22:30 GMT -5
Who knew? We’re in complete agreement. Okay, let's quit while we're ahead.
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Feb 14, 2016 10:48:19 GMT -5
It is possible that civilization is a negative survival trait for the species.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 11:00:19 GMT -5
That's kind of where I am, Doug. As soon as folks started settling down and domesticating themselves and livestock, they started to become specialists in one thing or another. That meant they had to cooperate with specialists in things they weren't to get things they needed. It follows that some kind of cooperative self-beneficial patterns of behavior and certain trade conventions arose to make the whole process more efficient. The larger the society, the more beneficial it became to institute some sort of corrective norms (laws) to handle the inevitable outliers. It behooved people to play along with the herd. Some people were a LOT better at this game and became Rockefellers, Putins, Carnegies, Suads and stuff. Human nature and the need for rewards saw to that. If one choses to have a deistic moral code to buttress all of that, more better, says I. Of course, there is this guy Maslow and his hierarchy. Should I start running out of stuff due to sudden critical resource constraints, I'm going to come over to your house, cut your head off, and steal what I need to survive. I'll pray for you afterward, Doug.
|
|
|
Post by Doug on Feb 14, 2016 11:14:00 GMT -5
That's kind of where I am, Doug. As soon as folks started settling down and domesticating themselves and livestock, they started to become specialists in one thing or another. That meant they had to cooperate with specialists in things they weren't to get things they needed. It follows that some kind of cooperative self-beneficial patterns of behavior and certain trade conventions arose to make the whole process more efficient. The larger the society, the more beneficial it became to institute some sort of corrective norms (laws) to handle the inevitable outliers. It behooved people to play along with the herd. Some people were a LOT better at this game and became Rockefellers, Putins, Carnegies, Suads and stuff. Human nature and the need for rewards saw to that. If one choses to have a deistic moral code to buttress all of that, more better, says I. Of course, there is this guy Maslow and his hierarchy. Should I start running out of stuff due to sudden critical resource constraints, I'm going to come over to your house, cut your head off, and steal what I need to survive. I'll pray for you afterward, Doug. Army vs Marine. Yeah sure. Maybe I should figure in the 20 yrs you have on me. But if you are still on the crutches that might take care of that advantage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:33:06 GMT -5
People are basically motivated by self interest. Hard wired. Fear, whether of the pack leader, of a God or of a pack leader chosen by God is a method of convincing people that it is in their self interest to co-operate. Religion is an organizing principle, after all. There may be others but that was the main one and I believe all the others spring from it, to the point, that they become religions to the irreligious. At least, they believe themselves to be irreligious.
|
|
|
Post by Fingerplucked on Feb 14, 2016 13:36:02 GMT -5
I am irreligious, I swear to God.
|
|