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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 20:09:40 GMT -5
Twas a delish pizza.
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Post by Marshall on Apr 3, 2016 20:41:56 GMT -5
I guess that is why this car looks like a computer mouse. I'm glad that Elon Musk isn't going in that direction. I's really hoping for Tesla's success. The Model 3 pictured below is priced at almost $10,000 less than that hat box of a BMW. I really like the lines of the Tesla. Although I can't get over the blank space on the front of the Tesla where the grill is supposed to go. I have a nephew that just plunked down the down payment on one of the first edition models for next year.
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Post by mccoyblues on Apr 4, 2016 15:26:22 GMT -5
Tesla introduced the car and officially started taking pre-orders on Thursday. As of Saturday morning Tesla has taken 276k order deposits for the new Model 3 sedan. It took Toyota over 8 YEARS to sell than many Prius's.
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Post by billhammond on Apr 4, 2016 15:32:08 GMT -5
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Post by brucemacneill on Apr 4, 2016 16:04:06 GMT -5
Rumor has it that they're making an investment, buying an option on a model 3 in hopes they can sell the option at a later date for a profit when the cars are in short supply vs. demand.
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Post by Doug on Apr 4, 2016 16:11:34 GMT -5
Not impressed with the looks but it's not as god awful as some. If I didn't think I'd die before I got my $35k worth out of it I'd be interested. If I live long enough I'll look at them when they hit the used market.
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 4, 2016 17:06:09 GMT -5
Tesla introduced the car and officially started taking pre-orders on Thursday. As of Saturday morning Tesla has taken 276k order deposits for the new Model 3 sedan. It took Toyota over 8 YEARS to sell than many Prius's. Yeah, but it takes them about 8 weeks to sell that many normal cars like Corrollas.
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Post by Doug on Apr 4, 2016 17:35:49 GMT -5
I'm cheering for the Teslas and I hope they do well. Market driven not government driven technology. At $35k it's in the price range of cars of that caliber, right now range is the hold back. At a min 215 mi range that's enough to make it viable if recharging is available quick and easy. But he's going in the right direction, price down and range up.
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Post by brucemacneill on Apr 4, 2016 17:44:53 GMT -5
I'm cheering for the Teslas and I hope they do well. Market driven not government driven technology. At $35k it's in the price range of cars of that caliber, right now range is the hold back. At a min 215 mi range that's enough to make it viable if recharging is available quick and easy. But he's going in the right direction, price down and range up. He's still heavily government subsidized I think. That and there's still an 8K-dollar tax rebate for buying the car. On a cost basis, I think Tesla still loses money on every car they sell except that they have a subsidy to cover the loss. That's how it started anyway and I hadn't heard of any change. The 8K rebate is supposed to be going away sometime soon, I think. edit: dailycaller.com/2015/08/10/tesla-is-hemorrhaging-money-despite-millions-in-govt-subsidies/
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 4, 2016 17:46:35 GMT -5
I'm cheering for the Teslas and I hope they do well. Market driven not government driven technology. At $35k it's in the price range of cars of that caliber, right now range is the hold back. At a min 215 mi range that's enough to make it viable if recharging is available quick and easy. But he's going in the right direction, price down and range up. Tesla is the ultimate in government driven technology. If the government hadn't made up its mind to kill fossil fuels, Tesla would never survive. There's nothing new about them except the extraordinary government backed hype. If there were a real market for electric cars, the majors would put Musk out of business in 18 months.
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Post by Doug on Apr 4, 2016 19:00:43 GMT -5
I don't see how he can hope to deliver a quarter of million cars in any reasonable time frame at 10,000 a month it would take over 2 yrs and I don't see him getting more than 1000 a month and that's a stretch. So 20+ yrs to produce the ones he has deposits for. My understanding is the $35k is before the $8k subsidy which I'm sure is helping his "sales".
But I think that electric cars are the future. Not because of environmental reasons (that's just a free add on like getting rid of horse shit when cars replaced buggies). With the two exceptions of range and rapid charging stations, electric cars out perform internal combustion cars. But the change needs to be driven by the market not the government. At least half the US population would be fine with electric cars for 90% of their driving as they live, work and play in a city - but cost is a determining factor, market needs to push the price down.
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Post by mccoyblues on Apr 4, 2016 19:31:44 GMT -5
Unless you're traveling the 200 mile range shouldn't be an issue. If you drive more than 200 miles on your commute you need to move. The $35k is the starting price. I'm sure the first models will be optioned up and will bring a big premium well past that entry level price. As far as the delivery numbers, that's something he's got to get a handle on but I think you're right Doug. As a company VW averages about 250,000 cars sold (all models combined) in America in one year. Audi sells about that many cars in 2 years.
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 4, 2016 20:44:46 GMT -5
I don't see how he can hope to deliver a quarter of million cars in any reasonable time frame at 10,000 a month it would take over 2 yrs and I don't see him getting more than 1000 a month and that's a stretch. So 20+ yrs to produce the ones he has deposits for. My understanding is the $35k is before the $8k subsidy which I'm sure is helping his "sales". But I think that electric cars are the future. Not because of environmental reasons (that's just a free add on like getting rid of horse shit when cars replaced buggies). With the two exceptions of range and rapid charging stations, electric cars out perform internal combustion cars. But the change needs to be driven by the market not the government. At least half the US population would be fine with electric cars for 90% of their driving as they live, work and play in a city - but cost is a determining factor, market needs to push the price down. From an all over value proposition there is no better fuel than petroleum and there is none on the horizon. It's abundant, cheap to produce, safe, available at every other street corner in the country, stable, easy to store and transport, and performs great. Electrics can't compete. And the myth that the range only needs to cover your daily commute is absurd. You're seriously going to buy or rent a second car to visit grandma 1200 miles away once a year? Not likely. Which makes electric cars a niche hobby vehicle at best. So far Tesla has sold about 100,000 vehicles in 3 and a half years. The American market is about 16 million vehicles annually. Hybrids struggle to achieve a 3% market share. Electrics don't even register. Toyota sells more than half a million Camrys in this country every year. That's just one model. Ford sells 3/4 of a million F-Series annually. Forget the minor players, the majors sell a ton in this country. And GM is coming out with the Bolt which is exactly this new Tesla's market. The difference is that GM has massive traditional vehicle sales and extensive capital, manufacturing, and supply base capability that will float a niche potential loser vehicle with no real risk. Add to this the fairly dismal financial outlook for Tesla and it's doubtful anyone will see any of these vehicles they ponied up for. Tesla's cash reserves are falling below a billion dollars currently and they burned through a billion dollars in 2015. Considering that they still have to finish development in the next 2 years, and it's looking like belly up time before they ever fire up the prototype manufacturing line. As a survivor of a vehicle manufacturing start up that crashed and burned, the writing's on the wall. A low margin, capital intensive industry like automotive is brutal and unforgiving. Particularly for amateurs.
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Post by jdd2 on Apr 4, 2016 21:30:20 GMT -5
While there are some incentives, hybrids are quite popular and admired. And with that long a waiting list, they're selling for sticker price (no discounts).
No time now to look up the numbers, but I've heard hybrids and even all electrics are selling like hotcakes in China.
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Post by aquaduct on Apr 4, 2016 22:33:05 GMT -5
While there are some incentives, hybrids are quite popular and admired. And with that long a waiting list, they're selling for sticker price (no discounts). No time now to look up the numbers, but I've heard hybrids and even all electrics are selling like hotcakes in China. Just out of curiosity, how much does a gallon of gas cost in Japan?
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Post by Doug on Apr 5, 2016 2:01:43 GMT -5
I know it's your industry but I think you are wrong. Internal combustion engines are not very efficient. When I was working on cars for a living most engines ran in the 80% waste range(waste the heat the radiator gets rid of), I'm guessing that with computer controlled fuel and ignition that the waste is maybe in the 60% range. Electric cars will win for the same reason that CFLs replaced incandescent and LEDs are replacing CFLs, they are more efficient about 25% waste. And besides they accelerate better, they sound better and they are a better platform to be a cell phone on wheels(self driving cars). Not something that's going to happen instantly but it's coming. I guess 40-50 yrs for it to be unusual to find an internal combustion vehicle on the road. Internal combustion has an extensive infrastructure but stables became gas stations/garages. So I'm guessing that gas stations will become dual gas and charging stations.
There are still people with incandescent light bulbs(burn your hand when you unscrew-waste), and I can remember in the 50s there were still people getting around in wagons with a horse(not many and they were poor and black but they were still around).
BTW if I was still in N FLA with a with a well I'd have a bunch of incandescent bulbs to go in the well enclosure (cheapest safest way to keep the well from freezing- good use for the waste heat).
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Post by jdd2 on Apr 5, 2016 3:34:54 GMT -5
While there are some incentives, hybrids are quite popular and admired. And with that long a waiting list, they're selling for sticker price (no discounts). No time now to look up the numbers, but I've heard hybrids and even all electrics are selling like hotcakes in China. Just out of curiosity, how much does a gallon of gas cost in Japan?Wrong question. What are people interested in? What do they want to show off to their friends? What will put them ahead of the Jones' next door? What do they want to display in their neighborhood? The behavior of post-scarcity societies is not locked to things like the price of gasoline. The price of a gallon of gas? My round-trip commute is about nine miles. Add a bit for some errands now and then. The gas price doesn't matter. Still, a standard Prius or PHEV would be cool. Doug, amazingly, has it right. It's what kind of platform you want for your cell phone (and your life as defined by that), not what a gallon of gas costs.
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Post by mccoyblues on Apr 5, 2016 7:05:58 GMT -5
Right now the gas prices in Japan are $4.24 per gallon.
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Post by Marshall on Apr 5, 2016 7:55:42 GMT -5
At the moment I'd vote with Peter. The US is a big wide open country with open roads as far as the eye can see. (Just ask Billiam). Japan not so much. China I don't know. For the same reason high speed trains don't work here, electric cars won't work here. Because the distances are too big. It's easier, cheaper, and faster to fly. And you can drive your car coast to coast, if you choose, with 2 drivers around the clock with only a 15 minute pit stop every 4 hours. That ain't ever going to happen in an electric.
Now I'm OK with electrics or hybrids. There is a solid niche for them as a 2nd vehicle. Commuting is a big ugly chunk of American life. And maneuvering a big honking gas guzzling full sized SUV around crowded urban streets is daunting, expensive, and not fun.
But electrics won't ever be the average family's road vehicle.
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Post by Marshall on Apr 5, 2016 8:02:10 GMT -5
My nephew works for a University in Atlanta. He already has a Leaf. He get's preferred parking at work and a free charging station there. He dosen't even pay for fuel. And with the $8k tax break, plunking down $1k on a future car is nothing but a good investment.
They have a big Chevy Tahoe as their family long distance ride.
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