Col. Schlimm, I would like to swap a story for some advice

[AlanC]

First the Story:
Background- My Uncle, Bug Chavers, who died 10 years or more ago was one of my dad's older brothers. He was very Baptist; very straight laced; a deacon in his church that he attended for 40 years or more. He was also WWII vet but all he ever told the family was that he was a cook. That was it. No stories or anecdotes of any kind. Just a cook. Late in life after retiring he got himself an Alveraz dreadnought and small amp to play and sing gospel songs. But he was also fairly proficient with some string bending acoustic Delta blues that he must have acquired locally as a young sprout in Oak Grove, Louisiana which is also flat Mississippi delta country in NE Louisiana. I guess there was a little more to him than I originally thought. But, as usual, I digress.

When he was days before dying in a hospital I went to see him. For some reason we were alone in the hospital room. After greetings I sit down close as his voice was very faint- he was always soft spoken but now barely above a whisper. "I swam ashore at North Africa when the Vichy French torpedoed my troop ship". WTH?? When I asked him about the "just a cook" stuff he doesn't answer that but continues. "In Italy I was a forward artillery observer". The next thing he told me sent my head spinning even faster. He said he cussed Gen. Mark Clark to his face and called him a coward for not allowing them to call artillery strikes on Monte Cassino. He said they had him in irons awaiting transport to the brig when a British officer inquired about him. When informed that he had cursed Gen. Clark, he said: "If he were a chap of mine, I would give him a medal". Soon after he was freed.

I had almost forgotten his story but when two of his daughters had my sister and I over for a Christmas dinner I remembered and told them what he had said. They were also floored hearing nothing but the "I was a cook" story all their lives. We speculated as to the veracity of his story determining that it could be: mostly true even though highly unlikely; partially true but embellished; or totally false. If false or embellished we both agreed that such a religious man just days from meeting his maker would not knowingly lie to a lowly nephew in private. What would be the motivation? He could have been slightly delusional due to the nearness of the grim reaper and the meds he must have been on. His brain could have pulled several strands together in his mind to make it real to him. We are not sure.

My cousin, Linda, said she had his records and would dig them out. Hopefully they will shed some light on his unit- where they were and what they did.

Now for the advice. Once she gets his service records how can we determine what he actually did? I sure there must be records of battles fought (if any), engagements, locations, etc. How can we determine how much of his story was true? Any help would be appreciated.

Alan

[Dub]

<Clark>

[Russell Letson]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that he had not-spoken about his real experiences until whatever moved him to tell you at the end. My father--who was Navy and thus exposed to a different kind and degree of awfulness--spoke little about the actual-combat part of his wartime experience, though he had endless stories about the good parts of Navy life, which he loved. He did mention that he had been through kamikaze attacks on the oiler he served on in the Pacific (in his version of the no-atheists-in-a-foxhole sermon), but no details*.

An uncle--Ma's younger brother--who was an island-hopping Marine and later served in Korea never spoke about combat in my presence, though I know that he talked about it with Dad, just as Dad was the only person in the family who heard my maternal grandfather's WW1 stories. (Dad was a great story-teller who, I suspect, brought out other guys' stories.)

I don't know how the Army works, but I was able to trace Dad's career, at least the ships he served on, through on-line accessible records. (I used them to verify that a tiny face in a ship's-company photo must be him.) An interesting detail: I could swear that the young petty officers--Dad included--stood so that their shoulder patches showed to the camera--lots of crows and chevrons on display, perhaps because they were recently sewed on.



* Last year I had occasion to look into his service history and found that his ship received two battle stars for action in the Pacific and was credited with shooting down a kamikaze. Those were details he never mentioned in a lifetime of war stories. This from a man who was willing to talk about being on the ground at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki within weeks of the bombings, as bosun's mate in charge of the crews transporting visiting brass to view the destruction.

[Cosmic Wonder]

My service record consists of the dates of service, rank, the unit I was attached to and my service specialty. And that’s pretty much it.

Mike

[AlanC]

Jan 2, 2018 12:57:06 GMT -5 Cosmic Wonder said:

My service record consists of the dates of service, rank, the unit I was attached to and my service specialty. And that’s pretty much it.

Mike

Which is kinda what I expect my uncle's to show also. I was looking for some guidance as to how to find out what his unit did. If I find that they were a rear echelon or support group that was nowhere near Monte Cassino then we will know he was confused or delusional.

If his unit was part of the offensive against the Germans in that sector then maybe some of it was true.

[Deleted]

Alan,

As others have indicated, there could be a wide variety of details available. If you have his service number, you all could send away for whatever the National Archives still have. The story that "my records were lost in a fire in the 70s" is sadly true. A lot of veteran records went up in smoke at a facility in St Louis back then. It would be interesting to see what your cousin has.

What the records probably won't detail are the details of what your Uncle did day to day. If we received any decorations, that would help. We could try and find unit records too. I do know that the Germans sunk three troop ships or so during the landings in North Africa, and that the French shot torpedoes at others, but missed. That your Uncle could have the details mixed is totally understandable for instance. I can't remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday, let alone who shot what at whom years ago.

Strange but true, the farther back the war to WWII, the better the records. Back then, everything was on paper, and routinely archived. Remember that stuff?

If you tried to find archives of Desert Storm forward for individual units, you'd have a hell of a time. For instance, much of what existed from Desert Storm was bounced around and lost among several agencies. I'd have to get the details, but this is what I found out from several historians when I tried to find unit records for my own battalion. As we progressed into Somalia, the Balkans and OIF/OEF, we lost a lot to either no-longer-supported media or software, or to the fact that many units have their hard drives "wiped" upon returning home due to the routine presence of classified material (nothing nefarious there. Damn near everything we touch while out there has some level of classification.) None of that is pertinent to you!

I'd love to help in any way I can, so please let me know what Linda has.

[AlanC]

That will be great. I have texted my cousin and as soon as I get his info I will get back to you. It's interesting in that two general parts of his story are somewhat true. There were troop ships sunk off N. Africa although it wasn't by the French. I also read that Mark Clark was at Monte Cassino and that a British General was above him.
Interesting

[Deleted]

Mark Clark was also not very highly regarded by a lot of soldiers, particularly after the Rapido River crossing attempt.

[theevan]

I tried to get info on my grandpa, Glenn L Pyle. He flew in France in WWI. I was never clear if he piloted or was "navigator", sitting behind the pilot. He mainly did recon and battle observation. According to Christine's ex-intended, his wings pin indicated he actually flew for the US, not for France as many did.

Anyway, I always hit the big dead end. The Big Fire, I guess.

[Deleted]

Here is information on the fire from the National Archives web page.

www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html

[brucemacneill]

That's interesting because when they couldn't find my records I had to send a copy of my DD214. They said my records might have been destroyed in the fire but I didn't get out 'til February 1969 and I was Navy anyway. Any excuse I guess.

[Tamarack]

Looking forward to hearing what you learn about Uncle Bug. "I was just a cook" seems to be typical of many WWII vets, either because they didn't want to recount the horrors of combat or because "I was just doing my job". My late father-in-law, 6'4' and 250 pounds, ended up as a company clerk because he knew how to type. He claimed to his kids that he had received the Purple Heart after dropping a ream of paper on his foot. We didn't learn until late in his life that he had escorted Eleanor Roosevelt around the base in a jeep and was on the ground in occupied Japan.

Maybe Uncle Bug served alongside my Uncle Eddie. Uncle Eddie came ashore in North Africa soaking wet and having lost his weapon, I don't know whether his troop ship sank or it was a landing craft mishap. After hearing this news, my Mom decided she couldn't stay home and had to join the war effort, so she enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps. Ended up in India and met a handsome Army engineer, but that's another story.

[AlanC]

My cousin is traveling so it will be Feb 1 before she gets home to dig out his records.

[Doug]

Wars make for strange placements.  Having a non combat MOS (military occupational specialty code) doesn't always mean you won't see combat. 

[kenlarsson]

My dad was awarded a silver star and purple heart during WW2. He never talked about it and never joined any veterans organizations. I only had one conversation with him about his war experience. He didn't talk about the action that got him his medals (my mom kept a newspaper article that said he took out a German machine gun nest that had pinned his unit down). What he talked about was the time when his unit was over run by the Germans and he avoided getting killed or captured because he had been so scared that he passed out and they thought he was dead and let him be. He also talked about his regret that he went against his fathers wishes by dropping out of school and enlisting. (He later went back to school and got his degrees) I know he came back with PTSD. My mom told me about how he had nightmares for a year or two after he got back. He'd wake up screaming in the night and my grandfather would sit with him until he could go back to sleep.

His service records were destroyed in the St. Louis fires but years later we were able to discover he actually had a disability retirement due him that he had never received. He finally got his disability retirement though they were only able to give him a years worth of back pay. He was very moved by finally getting the retirement.

[AlanC]

Holy cow. We can't begin to imagine what that was like.

[Doug]

My uncle never told us anything about the landings on Tarawa and Saipan until after I came back.  But he told me that both times he pissed his pants and when he was wounded he wanted the corpsman to wait till his pants dried before they took him back to the ship. I guess not the type of story a tough Marine wants to tell. Hell I'd have pissed my pants too. 

[Village Idiot]

I knew a WWII vet who talked about the war and his role, and he was very upset by it. Plagued by it, in fact. He was in artillery, so they'd kill people from afar but could watch the carnage they brought. He never spoke of it for most of his life, but at 90 he'd talk freely and being to cry.