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Post by billhammond on Mar 3, 2018 10:25:01 GMT -5
Forty-plus 5-inch joints, Jeff? Hope you got a lotta Cheetos!
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Post by Marshall on Mar 3, 2018 11:00:31 GMT -5
Don't look much like a boat ?
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Post by brucemacneill on Mar 3, 2018 11:08:03 GMT -5
"The biggest problem here is a very simple one: There are a lot more American businesses, jobs and money in the industries that use steel and aluminum than there are in the American steel and aluminum industries. A lot."
That's a problem. We need more people making steel and aluminum in this country. Sadly, not everyone can be a programmer. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Trump is trying to get jobs for people in this country and I support that, as long as he doesn't raise the price of Scotch.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 11:21:25 GMT -5
Tariffs are enacted to protect domestics industries that are claimed to be vital to the nation's interest. Tariffs aren't an American invention, they are a universal and time-honored practice. So far, at least for me, the key questions concerning this proposed tariff haven't been addressed honestly. (and I don't know where I would get an honest answer in this political environment; politics drives everything in this country, including the economists chosen to explain the economics to me)
Some questions I have:
Is having the capacity to produce steel and other metals domestically vital to our nation's best interest?
If this answer is no, then my questions about this tariff are largely done with.
If the answer is yes, then I have another question. Is this capacity being threatened?
If the answer is no, then my questions about this tariff are largely done with. It is not necessary and will be harmful.
If the answer is yes, then I support it even if some harm results. Even if it may not work. I believe the national interest is served by having a domestic metals industry that not only survives but thrives (which means having the ability to invest in itself, modernize and innovate).
I do not have access to any yes or no answers to any of the above questions. I question whether they exist (though I am personally certain that the answer to the one about needing a healthy and productive domestic metals industry is "yes"). I do believe America's metals industry is being threatened both without and within. Threatened without by cheaper imports which represent predation as much as competition. And threatened within by a fervent environmentalism that could make HG Wells' imagined world of Morlocs and Eloi uncomfortably real.
Will tariffs help?
"No" says the economists I have heard so far on TV. Protectionism makes an industry fat and indolent. Ok, there is evidence to support that.
Are there economists that say "Yes, domestic metal industries are threatened and tariffs might help."? I know there are, but I have not heard any of them so far on TV. Not a one. But, they are there. That I know. They may be outnumbered and unheard, but they are there. I don't know if they have any evidence that shows what happens to a large country that loses the capacity to produce its own metals. I don't know if they have good evidence that shows that that capacity is truly threatened. I don't know if they can prove tariffs will help. But, if their concerns are justifiably concerns, they justify action.
I do know that I haven't heard a straight answer concerning the health of our domestic metals industry and its prospects to endure and thrive. I don't know where I would get a straight answer. And between the turbulence of Trumpism, the certainty of conservatism, and the epidemic of environmentalism, I don't think I've heard a straight answer concerning either the need or usefulness of these proposed tariffs.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 11:27:38 GMT -5
Tariffs caused the Great Depression? Hmm? Conjecture.
Who wins WWII if the United States had become dependent on imported steel from Asia and didn't have a strong domestic metals industry? Hmm? More conjecture.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Mar 3, 2018 11:38:59 GMT -5
Tariffs caused the Great Depression? Hmm? Conjecture. Who wins WWII if the United States had become dependent on imported steel from Asia and didn't have a strong domestic metals industry? Hmm? More conjecture. They did not say tariffs caused the Great Depression. They said it deepened and lengthened the Great Depression, due to the drop in global trade caused by the trade wars. That is not conjecture. Mike
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Post by dradtke on Mar 3, 2018 12:12:06 GMT -5
I've been building stuff for clients out of steel and aluminum since roughly 1976. "Substantial" use, like building bridges and skyscrapers, no. Some clients require American Made Steel to be stamped on their drawings.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 12:14:48 GMT -5
[...they say that tariffs extended and deepened the Great Depression]
And tariffs and subsidies are given credit for rebuilding Europe's ability to feed itself after WWII.
And subsides (a tariff's kissing cousin) have been given credit by some for helping fledgling renewable energy companies survive.
Is everything about tariffs and subsidies so conveniently one-sided that they are always and without exception useless and harmful?
Why are so many of the same people who were cheering Bernie Sanders when he proposed similar protective measures now so completely and confidently convinced this is a terrible Trumpism that they aren't even wondering why in all this current hub bub there is so little information being presented as to why some might think a tariff of some type might be necessary?
Are there subsidized steel and aluminum imports flowing into the United States? Are China and South Korea dumping excess metal production into other countries which in turn are dumping it into the U.S.? Is China manipulating the metals market? Is the metals game rigged? Is domestic production threatened? Does it matter?
I don't know. I do know that when I watched Market to Market on PBS they had three economists on hand telling me why this was terrible idea. There wasn't one person interviewed who presented the other side. Maybe there isn't another side. If there is, it is being completely obscured by a Trumpian Cloud. If president Bernie had proposed these tariffs, would the coverage be different? Would some opinions be different?
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Post by Russell Letson on Mar 3, 2018 12:16:49 GMT -5
I've been looking through the Proboards terms of service and signup screens, and I can't find where I upload my resume, work history, and list of qualifications-to-comment, which are apparently required before I can post an opinion or address an argument on a given topic. Nor is it clear how far back I need to go or whether I need to submit letters of recommendation or other supporting documents.
Someone please direct me to the appropriate page(s), since I am looking forward to being allowed to take part in the vigorous discussions I see here. At least the ones in which it is judged that I have applicable expertise and skin in the game.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 12:23:59 GMT -5
I offer an online accreditation service for a very reasonable fee. Marty doesn't allow me to conveniently provide active links to my 100% American Service, so you will need to PM me.
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Post by aquaduct on Mar 3, 2018 12:32:12 GMT -5
I've been looking through the Proboards terms of service and signup screens, and I can't find where I upload my resume, work history, and list of qualifications-to-comment, which are apparently required before I can post an opinion or address an argument on a given topic. Nor is it clear how far back I need to go or whether I need to submit letters of recommendation or other supporting documents. Someone please direct me to the appropriate page(s), since I am looking forward to being allowed to take part in the vigorous discussions I see here. At least the ones in which it is judged that I have applicable expertise and skin in the game. Nobody said that. You feeling alright? Maybe you should lay down.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 12:38:16 GMT -5
It does sound like the steel industry's issue is with China (and South Korea). Not Canada. Not Europe.
And it should be borne in mind that nothing has happened yet. Nothing has been explicitly proposed. It is as likely that nothing will be done as something. And if something eventually does get done, there is no reason to believe it will include Canada or Europe as the steel industry is not complaining about Canada or Europe, it is complaining about market manipulation by China (and South Korea and Russia).
Yet, the sky is falling on Market to Market.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 12:41:51 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Mar 3, 2018 13:57:58 GMT -5
I've been building stuff for clients out of steel and aluminum since roughly 1976. "Substantial" use, like building bridges and skyscrapers, no. Some clients require American Made Steel to be stamped on their drawings. Works for me. Thanks.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 14:11:20 GMT -5
When I was a kid learning how to weld, I made a glider out some scrap iron I found. It didn't fly for shit. And it turned out that some of the scrap iron pieces weren't scrap iron but were instead some replacement parts Dad had just purchased for the cultivator. But, I learned something. Oh, yes, I did.
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Post by Village Idiot on Mar 3, 2018 15:56:33 GMT -5
Two thoughts: First, tariffs are stupid. Second, what's really stupid is having a bunch of old laws on the books that allow Presidents to unilaterally impose tariffs. One of many reasons I'd like to see a Constitutional amendment that every law automatically expire after ten years unless re-authorized by House and Senate super-majorities and re-signed by the President. Except that it would take twenty years to take a look at all the laws every ten years.
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Post by james on Mar 3, 2018 16:27:26 GMT -5
The idea that you have to work in the steel or aluminium industries or other satellite trades to comment on tariffs and trade is an absolute nonsense.
Trump level bullshit.
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Post by aquaduct on Mar 3, 2018 18:32:54 GMT -5
The idea that you have to work in the steel or aluminium industries or other satellite trades to comment on tariffs and trade is an absolute nonsense. Trump level bullshit. It's a good thing nobody's said otherwise.
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Post by james on Mar 3, 2018 18:45:46 GMT -5
It's a short route from explicit to implicit. "You feeling alright? Maybe you should lay down" is a dig that could have been avoided.
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Post by epaul on Mar 3, 2018 18:56:22 GMT -5
It could have been avoided. And I know it wasn't directed at me. But, it did encourage me to take a very nice nap. So, that part of it was good.
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