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Post by james on Jun 18, 2018 20:04:00 GMT -5
As Chris Hayes observes.
Currently, the Trump administration is arguing that its family-separation policy:
- is a deterrent
- is biblically compliant
- is the Democrats' fault
- does not exist.
While a commentator explains on Fox news that the traumatised, crying children are "child actors".
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Post by Cornflake on Jun 18, 2018 20:36:48 GMT -5
He stepped in it this time. I'm in favor of enforcing the immigration laws but we can be human beings as we do it. I just read a condemnation of this policy by the Mormon Church. He's being condemned by everyone in sight on this one.
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Post by Chesapeake on Jun 18, 2018 21:05:55 GMT -5
People have said "he's stepped in it" so often that I've come to think it will never happen. But maybe ... one day ...
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Post by Cornflake on Jun 18, 2018 21:08:56 GMT -5
Well, this won't affect the people who were already dead-set against him. It won't affect his base, which knows he's deficient in some regards but likes his policies. But those who weren't firmly in either camp won't be favorable towards this, I suspect.
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Post by aquaduct on Jun 18, 2018 21:18:35 GMT -5
Well, this won't affect the people who were already dead-set against him. It won't affect his base, which knows he's deficient in some regards but likes his policies. But those who weren't firmly in either camp won't be favorable towards this, I suspect. Well, there's 3 people.
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Post by millring on Jun 19, 2018 3:33:44 GMT -5
Democrat politicians and the media continue to believe that open borders is a winning position and will continue to attack at what they see as a weakness in Trump's policies. It's not.
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Tamarack
Administrator
Ancient Citizen
Posts: 9,390
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Post by Tamarack on Jun 19, 2018 7:55:12 GMT -5
This is not an issue of Democrats and The Media or "open borders". It is a human issue.
This inhumane Trump administration policy is opposed by many Republicans, leaders and laypeople of all faith communities, medical associations, and others throughout the USA and the world.
There is absolutely no justification for separating children from their parents for the crime* of crossing the US border illegally. We are not made safer, and the homeland is no more secure by human rights violations.
*A misdemeanor, to my understanding, like a string of unpaid parking tickets
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Post by brucemacneill on Jun 19, 2018 7:59:31 GMT -5
Well, the Democrats could always do what they promised Reagan back in '86 in return for 3 million illegals given amnesty and close the border. Then the families can stay together, south of the border, apply for entry at a port of entry and maybe they'll get in or fly to Canada I suppose.
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Post by millring on Jun 19, 2018 8:02:39 GMT -5
I understand that open borders is a very popular idea with about half the country. They just happen to be the half not in charge right now. And that open border idea is at least a big part of why they are not in charge.
Additionally, it's a bit of crying wolf. Too many worst things we've ever seen to believe that the next worst thing we've ever seen is actually the worst thing we've ever seen. It's the numbing effect of constant hyperbole. It's really hard to take the news reports seriously. When a policy seems completely irrational, there's probably a good chance we're not getting the complete story.
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Post by theevan on Jun 19, 2018 8:05:04 GMT -5
It's hard to tell if this another one of Trump's obtuse ploys to effect a particular outcome.
Anyway, if Congress could get off their butts and draft legislation they actually would like to see enforced, perhaps this mess could be resolved.
As usual, everybody's talking past each other.
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Post by brucemacneill on Jun 19, 2018 8:07:20 GMT -5
I understand that open borders is a very popular idea with about half the country. They just happen to be the half not in charge right now. And that open border idea is at least a big part of why they are not in charge. Additionally, it's a bit of crying wolf. Too many worst things we've ever seen to believe that the next worst thing we've ever seen is actually the worst thing we've ever seen. It's the numbing effect of constant hyperbole. It's really hard to take the news reports seriously. When a policy seems completely irrational, there's probably a good chance we're not getting the complete story. Yeah, my uber-leftist DIL shared that story of DHS assigning the kids numbers like a Nazi concentration camp this morning. I assume you've seen the kid with #47 on his shirt. A 10 second check of Snopes has it as FALSE. That's the shirt the kid was wearing when he came over the border. It's probably his favorite soccer players number or something. I'm tired of the BS.
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Post by AlanC on Jun 19, 2018 8:23:22 GMT -5
....I was still thinkin'
If she's in the mood no need to break it I got the chance and I oughta take it If she can dance we can make it C'mon queenie let's shake it
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Post by Chesapeake on Jun 19, 2018 8:26:07 GMT -5
I have no problem with enforcing current U.S. immigration laws - which as a matter of fact are among the most generous in the world, despite what people tend to hear. I have no problem with comprehensive reform of these laws to reflect current facts on the ground. And I agree that the liberal wing of the Democratic party demagogues this issue to death, and tries to portray our laws as draconian and anti-immigrant, with an eye toward increasing the number of Democratic voters in this country.
I also believe that creating orphans out of thousands of innocent children for the purpose of gaining negotiating position on immigration reform is every bit as cynical, if not downright evil, and, in my opinion, smacks of unnecessary cruelty, if not fascism.
Two things we can be sure of: Democrats will exploit this horror to the hilt. And Trump will continue blundering around the world stage until he gets this country into serious trouble.
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Post by Marshall on Jun 19, 2018 8:46:29 GMT -5
This is not an issue of Democrats and The Media or "open borders". It is a human issue. . . . , Spoken like a true Democrat. I'm not arguing with you. I'm saying that what one side sees as cut-and-dried is muddy emotional obfuscation to the other. These are people who have broken the law. Sure, all they want is a better place to live, and to cut your grass (and serve your fries). But every country in the western world has immigration laws. We are probably one of the most lax. Maybe we should offer all illegal immigrants a free bus ride up to Canada. Hell, they'd get free healthcare up there, wouldn't they?
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Post by Marshall on Jun 19, 2018 8:55:14 GMT -5
Our country is unique in the world. We stole an entire continent from the native inhabitants. There was no way we (European colonists) were ever going to reproduce our way to populate and control the land mass. So we uniquely called out to the rest of the world (white European world), "Send us your huddled masses longing to be free ! . . . , We've got free land if you help us steal it from the natives." (and if we kill most of them off in the process, who's going to notice).
Well those days are over. The whole continent is claimed by somebody. It's been tamed and occupied to the extent that it can support such activity. So now we are reverting back to a more standard western world nation stance on immigration. The open door is closed. Now you need the password to get into the speakeasy.
"Jose sent me?"
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Post by fauxmaha on Jun 19, 2018 9:13:59 GMT -5
This one first hit my radar a few days ago. Suddenly, Twitter was choc-a-block with pics of these winsome little kids, all stuffed into horrible conditions, because Trump and all that.
Then, about 12 hours later, once the Twitteratti got to work, links started to get posted showing that many (perhaps even all) of those photos were pulled from news stories from before Trump was elected.
So I'm left with a few thoughts:
- If you have a border, you're going to have to enforce that border. If you enforce that border, you're going to find that doing so in a social-media-outrage-machine friendly way is impossible. No matter what, it's going to look bad, whatever you do.
- The current explosion of interest in this seems too manufactured. It came on too suddenly, from too many directions. Makes me skeptical. Echo-chamber and all that. It is entirely too easy to drum up a Two Minute Hate.
- We should be at least as invested in the idea that our fellow citizens are acting from a position of goodwill as we are invested in the idea that these would-be immigrants are acting from a position of goodwill.
- I'm seeing a lot of stuff that explicitly and openly equates border enforcement to being a Nazi. "You want more Trump? That is how you get more Trump."
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Post by AlanC on Jun 19, 2018 9:15:53 GMT -5
In other words we stole it fair-n-square. Fait Accompli
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Post by aquaduct on Jun 19, 2018 10:05:33 GMT -5
This one first hit my radar a few days ago. Suddenly, Twitter was choc-a-block with pics of these winsome little kids, all stuffed into horrible conditions, because Trump and all that. Then, about 12 hours later, once the Twitteratti got to work, links started to get posted showing that many (perhaps even all) of those photos were pulled from news stories from before Trump was elected. So I'm left with a few thoughts: - If you have a border, you're going to have to enforce that border. If you enforce that border, you're going to find that doing so in a social-media-outrage-machine friendly way is impossible. No matter what, it's going to look bad, whatever you do. - The current explosion of interest in this seems too manufactured. It came on too suddenly, from too many directions. Makes me skeptical. Echo-chamber and all that. It is entirely too easy to drum up a Two Minute Hate. - We should be at least as invested in the idea that our fellow citizens are acting from a position of goodwill as we are invested in the idea that these would-be immigrants are acting from a position of goodwill. - I'm seeing a lot of stuff that explicitly and openly equates border enforcement to being a Nazi. "You want more Trump? That is how you get more Trump." I caught a little of the DHS Secretary's news conference yesterday on the radio riding home from work and it was stunning what the people in that room were doing to her. I feel sorry for the legitimate press folks here who learned the craft before it dumped any sense of decency in favor of half-assed analysis and loudmouthed, rude bullshit. Anyways, the questioning turned to the raw heartlessness of separating 12,000 kids from their parents at the border. The Secretary responded, "First, 10,000 of them came here without parents or other adults." And then she went on to detail the numerous legal issues- no way to verify parentage, criminal records of parents, etc.- for the other 2000. Frankly, I don't remember anything after that. 10,000 kids left alone in the desert to f*cking walk across the border. And these people are chewing this woman out for political gain because she's housing them in conditions that are obviously far and away better than these kids have ever known. I've been married for 31 years and raised 2 kids of my own. Times have been bad, times have been good, but there's never been a moment when I wouldn't die before putting my family through that. And these whiny sh*ts want to insult me for political gain because I can't make it to their level of outrage. Concentration camps, Stalin, the whole 9 yards. F*ck 'em all, let Trump sort them out. Bring on November.
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Post by timfarney on Jun 19, 2018 10:40:00 GMT -5
I understand that open borders is a very popular idea with about half the country. They just happen to be the half not in charge right now. And that open border idea is at least a big part of why they are not in charge. Additionally, it's a bit of crying wolf. Too many worst things we've ever seen to believe that the next worst thing we've ever seen is actually the worst thing we've ever seen. It's the numbing effect of constant hyperbole. It's really hard to take the news reports seriously. When a policy seems completely irrational, there's probably a good chance we're not getting the complete story. Normally, id agree with the last part here, but we’re talking about Trump. Irrational policy is in his dealmaker’s playbook. I’d disagree that half the country supports an “open border,” and would guess that history will show that it was Russian election interference and James Comey’s poor judgement that gave Trump his narrow electoral victory.
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Post by theevan on Jun 19, 2018 10:51:18 GMT -5
I understand that open borders is a very popular idea with about half the country. They just happen to be the half not in charge right now. And that open border idea is at least a big part of why they are not in charge. Additionally, it's a bit of crying wolf. Too many worst things we've ever seen to believe that the next worst thing we've ever seen is actually the worst thing we've ever seen. It's the numbing effect of constant hyperbole. It's really hard to take the news reports seriously. When a policy seems completely irrational, there's probably a good chance we're not getting the complete story. Normally, id agree with the last part here, but we’re talking about Trump. Irrational policy is in his dealmaker’s playbook. I’d disagree that half the country supports an “open border,” and would guess that history will show that it was Russian election interference and James Comey’s poor judgement that gave Trump his narrow electoral victory. In this case it is not irrational policy. You could argue it is irrational enforcement of established law. I won't make that argument. What is irrational is the hysterical presentation in the Press
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