|
Post by theevan on Apr 15, 2019 14:15:55 GMT -5
Seeing the fire was spotted around 6pm Paris time (okay, okay, 1800 hours), I think that points to workmen.
The Cabildo (where Louisiana Purchase was signed) in New Orleans had a bad fire years ago with roofers brazing some copper at the end of the day. Fire was spotted about an hour after they knocked off.
|
|
|
Post by theevan on Apr 15, 2019 14:17:09 GMT -5
Incidentally, there was a recent article in the Beeb about the seeming futility of finding enough money to save the place. It's been crumbling.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 15, 2019 14:20:21 GMT -5
This was my screen background for the late 90s.
|
|
|
Post by billhammond on Apr 15, 2019 14:31:30 GMT -5
A colleague who sits two cubicles away from me was just in Paris with his wife -- they attended mass at the Cathedral eight days ago.
|
|
|
Post by Village Idiot on Apr 15, 2019 14:33:08 GMT -5
Wow. This is truly sad.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 14:42:21 GMT -5
That's one of the few places I've seen in person that really caused me to pause. It's notoriety and age combined to add to the effect of seeing it in person. Stonehenge is another place with a lot of intrinsic gravitas.
|
|
|
Post by RickW on Apr 15, 2019 15:18:46 GMT -5
That's one of the few places I've seen in person that really caused me to pause. It's notoriety and age combined to add to the effect of seeing it in person. Stonehenge is another place with a lot of intrinsic gravitas. I have not been to a lot of places, but I did go to Greece and Turkey. Went to Olympia, Delphi, Sparta, the Acropolis, but none got me like the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. An overwhelming weight of history.
|
|
|
Post by Chesapeake on Apr 15, 2019 16:49:40 GMT -5
That's one of the few places I've seen in person that really caused me to pause. It's notoriety and age combined to add to the effect of seeing it in person. Stonehenge is another place with a lot of intrinsic gravitas. Macchu Pichu had a similar effect on me. Eerie. (Might have had something to do with the place where they sacrificed humans to the sun god.)
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 15, 2019 17:04:18 GMT -5
OK. Here's a couple of observations on the "coverage." On CNN, some female reporter was talking about the spire collapse, and she said it came down "under the weight of all those flames." First of all fire doesn't weigh anything. In fact it weighs less than the air around it. That's why it goes up. But I'll give her that. She's not an expert and is emotionally involved. Then a little later the CNN desk guy coordinating the coverage said, "Watch this as the iconic stone spire collapses." - Well the spire was supported by the roof which is comprised of wood trusses. Nobody, not even a medieval mason, would build a stone structure supported on a long span wood truss system. The spire is/was a wood structure with a copper cladding that looks sort of stone-like.
But I quibble.
The real critical thing is there is a roof cavity above the plaster ceiling and below the roof surface. That's where the trusses are. That whole structure is built of wood timers. And it's hidden from view. I've worked on similar structures (100 year old churches; 150 year old school buildings) and they are similar. That cavity is not accessible except maybe through a hatch at the corners. It is CRITICALLY IMPERATIVE that no fire source ever enters that cavity. It is a 600 year old tinder box with no sprinklers and no way to get at the source of any fire. There's NOTHING to stop it when it gets started. And in all likely hood the renovation work being done included brazing copper sheets, if not torching off lead paint on surfaces. Under these circumstances there should be a fire-watch (equipped with a fire extinguisher) on hand at all times. That means a workman with each crew whose only job is to watch the activity of the crew and make sure they don't do anything hazardous. And the fire-watch should stay on site for at least an hour after all the daily work activity is completed to make sure there's nothing smoldering that could flare up and cause a fire.
Another thing that should be done is have someone in the cavity to watch the inner condition. This is not easy. I've climbed around inside the roof cavity of a 100 year old church. It's not a people friendly space. But it'd be possible to install some simple security type cameras or even infrared sensors that could be monitored remotely to make sure that cavity is not being put in danger.
These are standard procedures that should be put in place whenever working on such a structure. And CERTAINLY for something as culturally important as Notre Dame Cathedral. Especially, especially, especially, because French fire fighting equipment can't reach the roof. In the US, modern buildings over 80' have a whole different set of fire safety requirements. That's because that's the highest ladder on a hook-and-ladder rig. I only point that out, because we've learned these lessons before.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 17:04:31 GMT -5
West Kennet Longbarrow, Sidbury Hill, Old Sarum, the Cern Abbas Giant, Barbury Castle and a host of other ancient works in the UK all had the same effect, Don. Grovely Wood outside of Salisbury has a remnant of a Roman road running through it. All had the effect of compressing time in my mind.
Some of the sights I saw in Iraq did the same, although I didn't really hang around to play tourist.
That said, something as grandiose as Notre Dame of Paris, or the Al Askari Mosque in Samarra, are hard losses. You can rebuild them, as folks in Samarra did with the Al Askari Mosque, but it's not the same.
|
|
|
Post by Chesapeake on Apr 15, 2019 17:04:59 GMT -5
A bunch of years ago, when I was in Japan writing about Shinto, somebody told me that at one time in history it was tradition to deliberately set aging shrines on fire, and replace them with new structures. The rationale was the shrines were made of wood, and wouldn't last forever anyway (even if they weren't claimed by accidental fire), and also it was a way of keeping alive the traditions and skills involved in shrine-building.
Seemed to make some sense, but I wasn't able to verify the truth of it in the time I had, and so this little factoid didn't go into print. I guess cathedral builders in Paris will get a workout now.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 15, 2019 17:15:17 GMT -5
Another sad thing is the walls of the cathedral may be compromised. Except for the towers and front entrance, the whole thing might be lost.
|
|
|
Post by billhammond on Apr 15, 2019 17:52:07 GMT -5
It's a damn shame that no one heeded the advice of President Trump to (quickly!) dispatch all the air tankers that France presumably has stationed up and down the Seine to fight such fires.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 15, 2019 19:04:22 GMT -5
Yeah, there's that.
OK, I did a little checking. I should have known this (or forgot it) but the roof structure is not truly a long span truss. There is a LOT of wood up there for sure. That's what the sloped roof is made of. But the main structure is a rib groin vault stone structure that forms the ceiling. And the ceiling supported the timber roof.
Boy I would have loved to get up there in the cavity to see it before its demise. Truly the Engineering feat of it's day.
**sigh** gone.
|
|
|
Post by RickW on Apr 15, 2019 19:39:25 GMT -5
Apparently a number of the beams were original, from the 12th century.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 15, 2019 19:50:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by david on Apr 15, 2019 20:40:54 GMT -5
Been there a couple times in 1977 and 1982. Fond memories. Just a monster of grandeur, artistry, beauty, elegance, and immense history and labor. As far as Paris landmarks to see I would rate it as #1, followed by the Louvre, and a distant 3rd is the Arc de Triomphe. Aside from the historical benefit, it will need to be reconstructed to keep tourists interested in the City.
|
|
|
Symbolism
Apr 15, 2019 20:47:33 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by xyrn on Apr 15, 2019 20:47:33 GMT -5
It was a neat building, but as far as I know, nobody died.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on Apr 16, 2019 0:05:13 GMT -5
Just saw this picture from a facebook post. It's the best thing I could expected through this It means the timber roof is gone, but the rib-groin arched ceiling is substantially still there. That is the primary structural element that ties the wall together and held up the wood roof. That is amazing. And it means that collapse of the walls could be controlled. There will be a massive massive project to reconstruct this. But all may not be lost.
|
|
|
Post by fauxmaha on Apr 16, 2019 9:36:40 GMT -5
Various day after pics seem to be showing a far better than expected outcome, such as it is.
|
|