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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 9, 2019 13:38:41 GMT -5
This short piece by Dana Bourgeois about the worth of high-end guitars came in the daily Acoustic Guitar Notes e-mail. acousticguitar.com/guitar-guru-how-do-i-determine-the-value-of-a-high-end-guitar/?mc_cid=910928c50e&mc_eid=10907fc167I reflected that I have four guitars that I know were made by one pair of hands (each) with minimal industrial-strength machinery--Steve Cloutier, Michael Dunn, and Tom Crandall. (In fact, Tom's was made entirely with hand tools in his grad-school apartment.) They're all really fine guitars. I also own a small-factory, Hawai`i-period Goodall; a Hoboken-factory Guild; and a 1920 Martin 0-18 (number of factory employees unknown, but they turned 1300+ instruments that year) that are really good guitars. (Not sure how many people worked in Antonio Marin Montero's shop in the 1970s, but my Marin classical isn't signed, so no knowing whose hands were on it.) The dollar values of these guitars vary a lot, with not much correlation to their values as guitars. The 99-year-old Martin might have the highest market price, though the Goodall's might be higher because there's less demand for 0-size instruments. And nobody outside Minnesota--or maybe Iowa/Wisconsin--has any idea of who Steve Cloutier might be. |
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Post by theevan on Nov 9, 2019 14:15:57 GMT -5
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 9, 2019 16:21:17 GMT -5
The question of the provenance of the Marin is interesting--I bought it in the 1990s as new old stock from Marc Silber when he still had a shop on Adeline in Berkeley. Marc said it was one that was commercially orphaned thanks to some kind of distribution dispute and had been in storage ever since. He thought that the lack of a signature meant that a shop foreman might have built it. At the time, my hands were giving me some trouble and I was looking for a good classical, and this was it. Anyway, I occasionally trawl the internet looking at pre-Bouchet-inspiration Marins, and I note that there are indeed two headstock and rosette styles on guitars attributed to Marin, and that some of them are (like mine) cedar topped. Here are my headstock and rosette-label:   |
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 9, 2019 16:40:31 GMT -5
Thinking about Marc Silber, so I Googled a bit and found this bit of oral history on the NAMM site. I used to visit Marc's store whenever I was in the Bay Area, and it's uncanny to see him as an old man with exactly the voice and demeanor I recall from two-plus decades back. The store, which he shared with George Katechis, was a wonderful jumble of old instruments that might or might not be for sale. Marc was great fun to talk to, quite a raconnteur, as the video demonstrates. www.namm.org/library/oral-history/marc-silber |
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Post by Marshall on Nov 9, 2019 19:23:32 GMT -5
I wasn't much impressed with Dana Bourgeois' comment.
I was very impressed with your Cloutier some years ago. Seriously considered having him make me one. I still have a thing for a redwood topped guitar, though I've never owned one. The best sounding McPhearson I played is a redwood over rosewood guitar. If it weren't for that funky soundhole, I might have popped for one. . . . , but probably not. They were going for $4.5k back then. That's twice what I've ever spent on a guitar. They're much more now. More like $7.5k
I do have a "custom" handmade guitar. That would be the Nick Lucas model by Bruce Roper. It's very nice. And personalized. Though after 5 years with it, I'm more enamored of late with my Chinese factory made cheapo Eastman J45 clone.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 9, 2019 19:48:42 GMT -5
Well, Marshall, I do have a spare Cloutier--though it's redwood over mahogany rather than rosewood. On the other hand, it is already a sunburst.
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Post by RickW on Nov 9, 2019 20:07:55 GMT -5
I’ll be honest and say I’m not sure whether anything he said was that useful, IMNSHO. The problem always for anything handmade is that you can build something excellent made by some machinery, or entirely by machinery, for a lot less than it takes to build by hand. So then it comes down to how much can you charge for doing it be hand? Ask John how that works in the pottery business. John makes beautiful pots, but he’s not selling pots to people who are looking to buy a serviceable pot to store/cook dinner in. They are buying art, and there is no objective measure for the value of art.
I got to play a vast expanse of boutique guitars at my buddy’s place. They were all great. All were different, and all were made with different levels of machinery usage. Did I like any of them better because someone spent more time by hand? Not in the least. I admire that, but I’m not in a position to buy guitars based on that as a criteria. Would I buy some of those guitars? Yes, I would, because they were amazing, but I ascribe none of that simply to being “handmade”.
So the worth of handmade comes strictly in the eye of the beholder. And the value of any instrument is placed in what it can do for me as a player.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 9, 2019 20:19:07 GMT -5
Isn't that pretty much what Bourgeois said?
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Post by epaul on Nov 9, 2019 20:20:32 GMT -5
And for $12,000, I want a guitar that allows me to sound even better than Sutton.
(if you only spend $1,000, you will only be able to sound like Delbert Bungswaddle, and you don't want that, so pony up.)
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Post by RickW on Nov 9, 2019 20:20:56 GMT -5
Lol. I read too much into how he was saying it. You are correct.
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Post by howard lee on Nov 9, 2019 22:19:34 GMT -5
I have a very dear and long-time friend who grew up in Troy, NY. His mother was a Cloutier, as was her older brother and all his kids and several grandkids. He doesn't build guitars, but he plays piano and sings. Really well.
And now back to our regularly scheduled thread...
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Post by david on Nov 9, 2019 23:26:44 GMT -5
Other than for sentimental/personal/familial reasons, do you have a guitar that you would not sell, for, let's say, 10 times the price you paid for it or 10 times its replacement value? For example, if I could locate my grandmother's old f-hole __________ steel string, I would not sell it because of sentimental reasons.
But I want to know if there is a guitar you own that, due to its sound and/or playability, you would not sell, except for a ridiculous amount of money.
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Post by millring on Nov 10, 2019 6:11:55 GMT -5
Other than for sentimental/personal/familial reasons, do you have a guitar that you would not sell, for, let's say, 10 times the price you paid for it or 10 times its replacement value? For example, if I could locate my grandmother's old f-hole __________ steel string, I would not sell it because of sentimental reasons. But I want to know if there is a guitar you own that, due to its sound and/or playability, you would not sell, except for a ridiculous amount of money. That's a good question. I realize that my guitars all have stories and that's one thing I love about them. Beyond that, I'd have to guess that the only one that is irreplaceable on sound quality ALONE is the LG2. But if offered $3500 for it (@ 3 times it's value), I'd probably sell it. I'd hate to for the sentimentality, but that sentimentality will die with me. |
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2019 7:35:47 GMT -5
Other than for sentimental/personal/familial reasons, do you have a guitar that you would not sell, for, let's say, 10 times the price you paid for it or 10 times its replacement value? For example, if I could locate my grandmother's old f-hole __________ steel string, I would not sell it because of sentimental reasons. But I want to know if there is a guitar you own that, due to its sound and/or playability, you would not sell, except for a ridiculous amount of money. Yeah, a couple of them. I buy tools, not instruments. These guitars and amps have performed flawlessly for decades. They'll never be sold, at least until the kids I will them to decide to sell them. I guess at this point it kind of crosses into sentimentality, but it's really about functionality. |
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Post by brucemacneill on Nov 10, 2019 7:49:14 GMT -5
I don't think I'll ever sell my guitars. The L7C has been with me nearly 60 years and still plays great. The ES-165 and the Alvarez/Yairi classical were gifts from Mary. The Martin we went halfsies on as a birthday present, sort of like I paid half for her quilting machine which was way more expensive than my Martin but who's counting. Added up all 4 guitars wouldn't bring that much but my son doesn't play and I don't really have any relatives that would want them. If I go first, Mary can try to sell them or give them away. If she goes first and I can't play anymore I may give them to the local arts council, which does give guitar lessons and let them give them to some deserving students. I know Peter wants the L7C but he's getting old too.
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Post by theevan on Nov 10, 2019 8:06:22 GMT -5
The question of the provenance of the Marin is interesting--I bought it in the 1990s as new old stock from Marc Silber when he still had a shop on Adeline in Berkeley. Marc said it was one that was commercially orphaned thanks to some kind of distribution dispute and had been in storage ever since. He thought that the lack of a signature meant that a shop foreman might have built it. At the time, my hands were giving me some trouble and I was looking for a good classical, and this was it. Anyway, I occasionally trawl the internet looking at pre-Bouchet-inspiration Marins, and I note that there are indeed two headstock and rosette styles on guitars attributed to Marin, and that some of them are (like mine) cedar topped. Here are my headstock and rosette-label: Looks very much like the one I linked from ebay. Interesting. Gotta be a real Marin. That's a treasure. |
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2019 8:10:14 GMT -5
I don't think I'll ever sell my guitars. The L7C has been with me nearly 60 years and still plays great. The ES-165 and the Alvarez/Yairi classical were gifts from Mary. The Martin we went halfsies on as a birthday present, sort of like I paid half for her quilting machine which was way more expensive than my Martin but who's counting. Added up all 4 guitars wouldn't bring that much but my son doesn't play and I don't really have any relatives that would want them. If I go first, Mary can try to sell them or give them away. If she goes first and I can't play anymore I may give them to the local arts council, which does give guitar lessons and let them give them to some deserving students. I know Peter wants the L7C but he's getting old too. Ouch. You hurt me big guy. |
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Post by drlj on Nov 10, 2019 8:11:57 GMT -5
Other than for sentimental/personal/familial reasons, do you have a guitar that you would not sell, for, let's say, 10 times the price you paid for it or 10 times its replacement value? For example, if I could locate my grandmother's old f-hole __________ steel string, I would not sell it because of sentimental reasons. But I want to know if there is a guitar you own that, due to its sound and/or playability, you would not sell, except for a ridiculous amount of money. I would not sell my Konkoly. I waited a long time to get it and I love how it sounds & plays. It is a wonderful guitar. I visited it while it was being built. It is an amazing guitar. I am not about to sell it & wait two years to have Joe build another. My Larrivee D-10 will be with me until I am no more. Barb gave it to me when we got married. It is the guitar I play the most. I cannot imagine being without it. I could easily exist with only it if I had to do so. Luckily, I haven’t had to do so. It has sentimental value, but it is a wonderful guitar that I love playing for reasons far beyond that. Unless we were starving and having to eat squirrel 3 times a day like the other Hoosiers, there is nothing that would cause me to sell either. The others I might sell for the right price & a couple are ready to go. They haven’t gone yet because I have been to busy with other things. At some point, they will all be somewhere else but I won’t know it so who cares? |
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 10, 2019 8:19:13 GMT -5
I don't think I'll ever sell my guitars. The L7C has been with me nearly 60 years and still plays great. The ES-165 and the Alvarez/Yairi classical were gifts from Mary. The Martin we went halfsies on as a birthday present, sort of like I paid half for her quilting machine which was way more expensive than my Martin but who's counting. Added up all 4 guitars wouldn't bring that much but my son doesn't play and I don't really have any relatives that would want them. If I go first, Mary can try to sell them or give them away. If she goes first and I can't play anymore I may give them to the local arts council, which does give guitar lessons and let them give them to some deserving students. I know Peter wants the L7C but he's getting old too. Ouch. You hurt me big guy. By the way, I'm still younger than that guitar. |
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Post by brucemacneill on Nov 10, 2019 8:23:58 GMT -5
Ouch. You hurt me big guy. By the way, I'm still younger than that guitar. Drop over to The Eastern Shore sometime and I'll let you play it. Bring the 335. |
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