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Post by howard lee on Nov 10, 2019 9:02:43 GMT -5
So, Dana Bourgeois says:
"Some of the most valuable fretted instruments ever made were produced by so-called factories. A 1939 Martin D-28 or D-45, as well as a 1923 Gibson F-5 mandolin, were each built by many hands, using at least some heavy machinery and employing certain semi-automated processes. Today, these instruments have far greater market value than most other instruments of similarly beautiful design and similarly superb craftsmanship. This is because popular, influential, and culturally significant music was once made on them, and continues to be."
Dana, you got some 'splainin' to do... if this is the case, then why does Wayne Henderson charge $3,000 to $5,000 for a mostly hand-built guitar (rural legend has it that his main tool is a folding knife), and the customer (or consignment retailer) can flip it for $25,000 to $30,000 for a guitar built in the last 10 or 15 years?
A 1939 Gibson J-35, for example, a model with very limited numbers, usually sells for about $13,000 in good condition these days. Why would a much newer second-hand Henderson sell for so much more? Could it be "perceived" market value that is influenced by factors such as limited supply, the luthier's reputation, and what Baby Boomers desire?
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Post by drlj on Nov 10, 2019 9:17:34 GMT -5
He said, "...than most other instruments.." He did not say all instruments. There are exceptions to everything. Henderson's used guitars sell for what they do mainly because having Wayne build one may take years and people would rather pay upfront for one and get it now than wait 5 years or more to get one. In the scheme of things, Henderson has only made a handful of guitars so there are really not all that many being sold and resold. The numbers are limited.
What Bourgeois said in the interview makes sense but it is just his opinion based on what he sees. I have read other such opinion and some that differ a bit so I don't take anything anyone says as absolute gospel.
If you talk to Gruhn and others who are selling used and vintage guitars, you will find that Baby Boomers are no longer driving the buying market. Boomers are selling. There are a lot of guitars hitting the markets and the prices of many of them have been and will be coming down. The majority of customers frequenting the big stores are not guys who are 65-70 years old but younger buyers who have a totally different idea about what to look for in a guitar and also are not as likely to drop $5,000 on something. The market is changing. There are only so many prewar D-18s out there because Martin only made so many but there is a real glut of other fine guitars hanging in the shops.
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Post by theevan on Nov 10, 2019 9:21:30 GMT -5
With guitars, it's all about who plays what for driving up prices some folks are willing to pay.
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Post by howard lee on Nov 10, 2019 9:23:15 GMT -5
I surely will not be purchasing a Henderson guitar anytime soon.
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Post by millring on Nov 10, 2019 9:49:55 GMT -5
I surely will not be purchasing a Henderson guitar anytime soon. Just as well. According to Wade Hampton Miller, they aren't well made anyway.
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Post by drlj on Nov 10, 2019 9:54:06 GMT -5
I surely will not be purchasing a Henderson guitar anytime soon. Just as well. According to Wade Hampton Miller, they aren't well made anyway. If you take Wayne a pie, the story goes, he moves you up a notch on the list. However, if you take him a mulberry pie, he throws it at you and takes your name off the list. Who is Wade Hampton Miller & why do I know that name?
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Post by Marshall on Nov 10, 2019 10:05:45 GMT -5
Acoustic Guitar Forum.
Wade is a regular contributor whose opinion is considered to have gravitas on the forum. He knows a lot about old Gibsons, though I take issue with him on some items.
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Post by drlj on Nov 10, 2019 10:28:14 GMT -5
Acoustic Guitar Forum. Wade is a regular contributor whose opinion is considered to have gravitas on the forum. He knows a lot about old Gibsons, though I take issue with him on some items. Oh. Thanks. Maybe I should check that site out but, then again, who has that much time?
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Post by RickW on Nov 10, 2019 11:48:12 GMT -5
I will probably never sell the cargo. It’s great to have a guitar that I can take anywhere, and not worry about it, and I generally take a guitar when we travel. it plays beautifully, and I’ve probably played it more than any other in the past 10 years.
I love the Stonebridge, but I can say without a doubt, that if I had the time and money, I could find another guitar that I like as much. My buddy does have several that would make me happy. Now whether I could buy any of those for what I paid for the Stonebridge, that’s very doubtful. So here I am, probably not going to sell it.
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Post by Russell Letson on Nov 10, 2019 12:25:51 GMT -5
We're talking about at least two different kinds of "value" here. The dollar value of an instrument is the product of market forces, which might affected by brand-name familiarity, fashion, celebrity association, cool/bling, or other non-musical factors. And even para-musical factors might be aligned in ways that are not entirely musically relevant--for example, the desire for dreads and jumbos rather than 0/00 sizes in the folk-scare days. (Just look at the cover photos on LP covers from the 60s and 70s.) Those build formulas produce instruments with distinct voices, but that is not what drove the fashion for big boxes.
That's why I suspect that my less-than-mint 90s Goodall Standard might sell for more than my very well-preserved 1920 0-18. They're both wonderful-sounding instruments, but there is probably more demand for big 14-fret Goodalls than for little 12-fret Martins, even century-old examples. (Both guitars are among those that would survive any deacquisition campaign not accompanied by death, though.)
When I interviewed James Olson, he was grateful for the prosperity that demand for his guitars was bringing him, but he insisted that he wasn't making the best guitars ever, just the best he could build. The implication was clearly that the correlation between market price and quality-of-product was not absolute. (And his answer to the price-doubling flipping of his guitars was to raise his prices so that he got to benefit from the high demand.)
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Post by david on Nov 10, 2019 13:30:08 GMT -5
I can appreciate Peter's view that they are simply tools. I think I could sell or give away all but one of my guitars. The one, a Goodall TROM, just fits, sounds and plays the best for me and I don't think I could easily replace it. So I would not give it up for 10 times its value. (Now at 100 times its value, I guess I would be willing to start shopping for a replacement).
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Post by howard lee on Nov 10, 2019 18:36:40 GMT -5
We are ALL simply tools.
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Post by aquaduct on Nov 11, 2019 8:29:28 GMT -5
Great name for a band- Simply Tools.
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Post by billhammond on Sept 24, 2021 20:10:08 GMT -5
Mr. Cloutier not only built great guitars, but he is an excellent player and composer/arranger, as well.
He was kind enough to give me permission to include this on my "speechless" CD, and I love this composition as much as any Celtic tune I have ever heard.
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Post by coachdoc on Sept 24, 2021 20:19:32 GMT -5
Other than for sentimental/personal/familial reasons, do you have a guitar that you would not sell, for, let's say, 10 times the price you paid for it or 10 times its replacement value? For example, if I could locate my grandmother's old f-hole __________ steel string, I would not sell it because of sentimental reasons. But I want to know if there is a guitar you own that, due to its sound and/or playability, you would not sell, except for a ridiculous amount of money. Yup. My special order Arcara 000. Adi top, Madrose back and sides. Not a lot to look at but it is my favorite sounding and playing guitar. I have played vintage Martins in Gruhn's and Carter's in Nashville. But I'd take my guitar over all but one or two I've played in those establishments. It took awhile to open up but over the last couple of months it has become a monster. PS. It is about 9 years old now.
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Post by james on Sept 24, 2021 21:00:36 GMT -5
I've got four guitars that I really wouldn't like to part with. All quite different. The Foley OM, the Everett jumbo(ish), the Fylde Oberon and the Lowden F32. I am propped up on a big pile of pillows in bed with the Fylde and the recently reclaimed Foley beside me because I've been twanging away on them to accompany sailing videos on YouTube for a couple of hours.
I am happy, fortunate and thankful that I don't need to sell any guitars.
Erm... I'm not sure that I have any thoughtful or pertinent points and observations. Don't hold your breath. (I saw Peter Rowan in a very small venue playing a Henderson. A bit spesh).
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Post by Marshall on Sept 24, 2021 21:03:18 GMT -5
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Post by dradtke on Sept 26, 2021 8:13:44 GMT -5
And for $12,000, I want a guitar that allows me to sound even better than Sutton. (if you only spend $1,000, you will only be able to sound like Delbert Bungswaddle, and you don't want that, so pony up.) So now you're putting down Bungswaddle? I remember when you aspired to sound like Bungswaddle.
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Post by epaul on Sept 26, 2021 11:15:13 GMT -5
I don't view my guitars as "tools". If they were tools, I could do something useful with them.
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Post by jdd2 on Sept 26, 2021 18:07:16 GMT -5
Guitars are tools for conviviality.
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