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Post by Cornflake on Dec 13, 2019 10:47:09 GMT -5
Marshall, I think we need to be leery of analogizing British politics to our own. We have a houseguest who's an English-born Canadian. He loathes Trump. He was delighted that Johnson won. He sees the EU as just the latest attempt by Germany to run Europe and he thinks Britain would be wise to get out. Whether he's right or wrong, his view doesn't parallel anything in our own issues.
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Post by Marshall on Dec 13, 2019 10:55:29 GMT -5
Trump wants us out of NATO; the military/defense equivalent of the EU. He breaks all the rules on international relations. I see many parallels.
It's a new world order coming down the pipeline. Buckle up, buckaroo.
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Post by lar on Dec 13, 2019 10:57:45 GMT -5
I could give a rip about Great Britain and their election. They seem to be well on their way to eventually becoming a historical footnote.
I am more interested in the unsubstantiated rumor that hairdressers from both sides of the Atlantic are plotting to separate both Johnson and Trump from their respective security details in order to perform a "hair intervention" on both men.
This just in from from a new Marquette University poll of Wisconsin residents. 52% of the respondents said that Trump should not be impeached and 40% said that he should. Those numbers have remained unchanged since before the impeachment inquiry began, an indication that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have moved public opinion in Wisconsin despite the hearings and testimony.
52% of the respondents said that they believe that Trump asked Ukraine to investigate a political rival and 44% said that Trump held up aid to Ukraine in an effort to bring about the investigation he wanted. 42% said that Trump did something seriously wrong. Even though the poll shows that Wisconsin residents are deeply divided on the issue I view the results as an indication that while a lot of people believe Trump was wrong, the majority don't believe that impeachment is the answer.
And that's the view from the former dairy capital of the US.
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Post by epaul on Dec 13, 2019 11:45:19 GMT -5
Trump wants us out of NATO; the military/defense equivalent of the EU. He breaks all the rules on international relations. I see many parallels. It's a new world order coming down the pipeline. Buckle up, buckaroo. NATO should have been disbanded the day the Berlin Wall fell. On that day, its reason for existing fell along with the bricks. NATO's foundational purpose, its raison d'être, was to create a military alliance against the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union fell. Yet NATO continued, not only continued, it was expanded and we armed a bunch of countries on Russia's border with NATO weapons. Pretty clear message. And Russia received it loud and clear. And now we got Putin. And we deserve him (even if the Russian people don't). MYOPIA. How the fuck would we react if Russia made military alliances with Canada and Mexico and armed them with missiles? How the fuck did we expect a new Russia trying to reorganize itself from Communism to react? Expanding NATO when the wall fell was fucking idiocy. Someone was extremely full of themselves.
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Post by casualplayerpaul on Dec 13, 2019 12:16:54 GMT -5
Can you provide more info on the Obama administration's quid pro quo with foreign countries for political favors and personal gain, and collusion with 2 foreign governments to influence the election? I'm not questioning your veracity. At the moment, though, I'm unable to to recall what you're talking about. Thanks. The outrage over the alleged witholding of aid to Ukraine is being felt by folks who didn't care that Obama withheld it while Ukraine was actually invaded and Crimea fell. But Biden was part of the Obama administration. Turns out he was actually vice president at the time he was using aid as a threat to manipulate Ukraine to the Obama administration's will....and giving contracts of millions to his son's company. And it was the Clinton campaign that was working with Steele and Russia to come up with opposition propaganda to use against Trump. Then the Obama administration actually dared to use that fake document -- acquired by the DNC and Clinton -- to get a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign ... wire tap them, send spies in with recording devices ... the whole nine yards. In testimony this week, Horowitz definitively refuted that talking point, noting that the Steele information “played no role” in the opening of the Russia investigation code-named Crossfire Hurricane.
So, did the IG perjure himself the other day? No.
The radical act of investigating a Presidential campaign was prompted by the uncomfortable fact that there was ample evidence that said campaign was playing footsie with the Russians.
Had Comey not made his big announcement a week before the election, Hillary would have won, and the right would be in year three of screaming about Benghazi.
Re: Obama, you are simply being lied to.
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Post by lar on Dec 13, 2019 14:37:36 GMT -5
The outrage over the alleged witholding of aid to Ukraine is being felt by folks who didn't care that Obama withheld it while Ukraine was actually invaded and Crimea fell. But Biden was part of the Obama administration. Turns out he was actually vice president at the time he was using aid as a threat to manipulate Ukraine to the Obama administration's will....and giving contracts of millions to his son's company. And it was the Clinton campaign that was working with Steele and Russia to come up with opposition propaganda to use against Trump. Then the Obama administration actually dared to use that fake document -- acquired by the DNC and Clinton -- to get a warrant to spy on the Trump campaign ... wire tap them, send spies in with recording devices ... the whole nine yards. In testimony this week, Horowitz definitively refuted that talking point, noting that the Steele information “played no role” in the opening of the Russia investigation code-named Crossfire Hurricane. So, did the IG perjure himself the other day? No. The radical act of investigating a Presidential campaign was prompted by the uncomfortable fact that there was ample evidence that said campaign was playing footsie with the Russians. Had Comey not made his big announcement a week before the election, Hillary would have won, and the right would be in year three of screaming about Benghazi.
Re: Obama, you are simply being lied to.
I beg to differ. An opinion piece by the WSJ editorial board on December 9 quoted Horowitz; “We determined that the Crossfire Hurricane team’s receipt of Steele’s election reporting on September 19, 2016 played a central and essential role in the FBI’s and Department’s decision to seek the FISA order.” A Trail of FBI AbuseAaron Blake, in an article in the Washington Post today, reported the same thing. If I've relied on the WSJ and the Washington Post and they got it wrong, I apologize. With regard to the Politicfact article, you are right. Gaetz was wrong when he said that Obama withheld all aid to Ukraine. However, it is a fact that Ukraine requested aid in the form of lethal weapons. It's also a fact that Obama elected not to provide that form of aid. As the result I've found it difficult to grant much credence to the Democrats who maintain that Trump's temporary withholding of aid cost Ukrainian lives when it's possible that the same could be said about the period of time during which Obama did not provide Ukraine with lethal weapons they might have used to prevent casualties. As this sorry spectacle in our history continues to play out I am reminded over and over again of the role that naked partisan politics has played in the proceedings. Democrats and Republicans alike seem to have few compunctions about using innuendo, distorting facts, or outright misrepresenting the truth. We the people, who they claim to care so much about, deserve far better than what we are getting. I fully recognize that people of good faith can hear the same things but still differ in their conclusions. I don't have a problem with that nor do I think less of someone who disagrees with me. In the public realm I've grown accustomed to taking liberties with the truth or with facts. I don't like it but don't see any way to stop it. On this forum, however, we're friends. If the FBI used the Steele Dossier and/or falsified documents in their pursuit of FISA warrants, can't we suspend political differences for just a moment and recognize what that means for our democracy as well as the phrase I've heard used over and over during the past several years; "the rule of law"?
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