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Post by RickW on Jan 10, 2020 20:42:58 GMT -5
I’m curious, after you get the song in decent shape, how long does it take you to get to the point where you’re happy with the delivery? The way you sing it, the phrasing/cadences, combined with the playing. That first song I posted, “The Wind Has Come Again,” I’ve adjusted, changed the key, changed the key change at the end. I’ve been singing and playing it over and over, pretty much every day once or twice a day. I played it for my vocal teacher last night, and he loved it. So I guess it’s ready to record again.
Anyhow, as I said, how long until you feel really good about how you’re presenting the song, after the writing is done?
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Post by Village Idiot on Jan 10, 2020 21:06:07 GMT -5
For me, whenever I have the next opportunity to play in public, which doesn't come up very often. Probably six months until the occasion arises. Better put, until I'm in a situation where I can do the song in public, and have prepared by convincing myself that I'm just going to do it. Like sticking my toes in a cold swimming pool, knowing I'm going to be shivering, but also knowing that after a few minutes that my body will adapt to the temperature and it will be just fine.
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Post by Cornflake on Jan 10, 2020 21:34:15 GMT -5
This is history for me, Rick, but it usually didn't take more than a few weeks until I knew how I wanted a song performed. If the song held up enough for me to keeping playing it, though, my performance of it would often be quite different a year later. We're mortal. Just go do it.
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Post by RickW on Jan 10, 2020 23:36:26 GMT -5
This is history for me, Rick, but it usually didn't take more than a few weeks until I knew how I wanted a song performed. If the song held up enough for me to keeping playing it, though, my performance of it would often be quite different a year later. We're mortal. Just go do it. It was more curiosity, Don. It’s been an evolving thing for me, how the guitar and the voice come together. Not having done a lot of it before, it’s taken its time. I imagine that as I do it more and more, it’ll come faster. I’m pretty happy with the song now; I always feel the song is as much about the presentation as it is about the song itself. Just got to take the time to record it now. |
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Post by sidheguitarmichael on Jan 10, 2020 23:37:33 GMT -5
I’ll let you know when it happens.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 3:52:03 GMT -5
I’ll let you know when it happens. My answer would've been, "Probably never." Or, "Depends." Not to sound new-agey, but sometimes, it takes a song awhile to find itself. Were I smart, I'd write a song and then let it sit for a month before coming back to it. Instead, a song is like a new toy and when it is new, you keep playing with it until you break it. Then you fix it, and sometimes it is better. There are some songs I perform the very same way as when I first wrote them. Some I do differently every time because the sound hasn't found itself yet. That's where open mics or songwriter groups are important. Nothing helps you spot a song's shortcomings (or strengths) like an audience's reaction to it. |
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Post by millring on Jan 11, 2020 6:56:13 GMT -5
Nothing helps you spot a song's shortcomings (or strengths) like an audience's reaction to it. Though I'm not writing songs, I think this is one of the most accurate insights about any creative endeavor. Everyone seems so taken with the modern art world's advice to our inner narcissist to express ourselves with no regard for an audience. Of course it's true that if we want to leave a creative mark we're going to have to be distinctive, but that doesn't mean we're not still engaged in a conversation with another, with our culture, with our audience. Beyond that, audiences DO know stuff. I may know how to make a teapot out of clay, but just because my audience doesn't know how to make a teapot doesn't mean they don't know how to use one. Most people (odd to me) may not know how to string along a series of words in a way that evokes an emotional response, but that doesn't mean they don't know when such a series of words has been successfully created. Sometimes the NOT knowing how something is created makes the audience BETTER at evaluating the product of that creation. They're not dazzled by virtuosity. |
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Post by coachdoc on Jan 11, 2020 7:41:00 GMT -5
Depends.
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Post by t-bob on Jan 11, 2020 8:48:03 GMT -5
Oldman coachdoc Most people need Depends- x large or xxxx large ;—-) to be undetermined or pending: |
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Post by RickW on Jan 11, 2020 11:07:12 GMT -5
Nothing helps you spot a song's shortcomings (or strengths) like an audience's reaction to it. Everyone seems so taken with the modern art world's advice to our inner narcissist to express ourselves with no regard for an audience. Of course it's true that if we want to leave a creative mark we're going to have to be distinctive, but that doesn't mean we're not still engaged in a conversation with another, with our culture, with our audience. I was at my vocal lesson this week, and played one of my songs for the first time to my instructor. I tend to hunch over my guitar. When I was done he said, “now do it again, but look at me.” I replied that I needed to look at my guitar for some of the more mobile passages. He told me to do so at that time, but the rest of the time to sit back and look at him. Well damn, another thing I didn’t think I could do. And it was amazing, the difference it made, engaging with someone, projecting to them. As he said after, he tricked me into performing, instead of just playing. I love a new revelation in life and in art. I don’t feel quite so old. |
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Post by RickW on Jan 11, 2020 11:09:17 GMT -5
I’ll let you know when it happens. My answer would've been, "Probably never." Or, "Depends." Not to sound new-agey, but sometimes, it takes a song awhile to find itself. Were I smart, I'd write a song and then let it sit for a month before coming back to it. Instead, a song is like a new toy and when it is new, you keep playing with it until you break it. Then you fix it, and sometimes it is better. There are some songs I perform the very same way as when I first wrote them. Some I do differently every time because the sound hasn't found itself yet. That's where open mics or songwriter groups are important. Nothing helps you spot a song's shortcomings (or strengths) like an audience's reaction to it. Thanks, Dave. I was wondering if some of the folks doing this more were like me, or simply had it all figured out quickly. I can see this being the more normal answer, really. Though, I’m guessing for those with big hits, they do them pretty much as they recorded them, because that’s the audience expectation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 11:38:02 GMT -5
Everyone seems so taken with the modern art world's advice to our inner narcissist to express ourselves with no regard for an audience. Of course it's true that if we want to leave a creative mark we're going to have to be distinctive, but that doesn't mean we're not still engaged in a conversation with another, with our culture, with our audience. I was at my vocal lesson this week, and played one of my songs for the first time to my instructor. I tend to hunch over my guitar. When I was done he said, “now do it again, but look at me.” I replied that I needed to look at my guitar for some of the more mobile passages. He told me to do so at that time, but the rest of the time to sit back and look at him. Well damn, another thing I didn’t think I could do. And it was amazing, the difference it made, engaging with someone, projecting to them. As he said after, he tricked me into performing, instead of just playing. I love a new revelation in life and in art. I don’t feel quite so old. That's part of the value of coaches. They get you to do stuff you didn't know you could do, or wouldn't think to do. And looking at your listeners is a skill most of us have to work at because we're more content with closing our eyes or staring at the mic. Once you develop that skill, it is a lot easier to connect with an audience. From my own experience, the road to getting a song in performance shape can't start until I've fully memorized it and I don't have to consciously think about what the next line is. Until I get to that point, I can't really explore where the song should go because I'm having to use the part of my brain that thinks. Singing for me usually doesn't involve thinking. (As I read it back, those two sentences make no sense. Or they make perfect sense....) The song has to become kind of instinctive. The other issue I have is that while I like to write (and edit, and edit some more) I'm not a melodic songwriter. I know guys and gals who get a musical idea in their head and can sing it with no guitar and the song evolves from there. That's never happened to me. I get into a place where I'll really like a song's lyrics, but I can't figure out a suitable melody to save my life. I'll put a melody to it and perform it, but it always feels like there is something off. I've got a song right now that I really like where it is at lyrically, but the melody I have for it feels wrong. In fact, if there are any melodicists out there who want to try their hand at putting some lyrics to melodies, let me know. I've got a few. There's a co-writing credit in it for you.... |
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Post by Marshall on Jan 11, 2020 12:00:09 GMT -5
About a hundred times before I take it out.
I beat and bash them until I'm ready to try them out somewhere. The first time is always dicey. I'll sing the 2nd verse first or something. Goof up some wording. Then the 4th or 5th time out it gets pretty solidified in my head. And then it becomes auto-pilot. I can really work on nuances then.
Though occasionally I'll think about a familiar song and have an epiphany a year or more later and change a couple of words that seem to bring the thing in sharper focus. They're never really done.
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Post by millring on Jan 12, 2020 13:31:12 GMT -5
Singer/Songwriter Types
...because writing out longhand is too laborious.
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Post by RickW on Jan 12, 2020 20:27:23 GMT -5
About a hundred times before I take it out. I beat and bash them until I'm ready to try them out somewhere. The first time is always dicey. I'll sing the 2nd verse first or something. Goof up some wording. Then the 4th or 5th time out it gets pretty solidified in my head. And then it becomes auto-pilot. I can really work on nuances then. Though occasionally I'll think about a familiar song and have an epiphany a year or more later and change a couple of words that seem to bring the thing in sharper focus. They're never really done. Well, I don’t feel like such a complete putz now.  |
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