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Post by Village Idiot on Feb 21, 2020 22:39:24 GMT -5
Including Trump.
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Post by epaul on Feb 21, 2020 22:54:43 GMT -5
And here's the next unspoken question: How many Afghanie people that helpd us while we were over there are going to be given visas to leave the country? How many will we let into the US? Some of these people are in for a WORLD of hurt otherwise. Likely they'll be killed so not or problem. It should be quite clear that this is an assessment, not a preference. Bruce remembers clearly, and with disgust, the murders and "re-educations" that occurred in Vietnam after we pulled out that this country did nothing to stop. That is abundantly clear in his postings. His statement that the same is likely to occur again in this instance is a very reasonable one and certainly not something to cheap shot. Assessment is not preference. And who here believes we will reenter the Afghan battlefield once we are fully out in order to stop the "domestic rearrangements" that are certain to occur?
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Cease Fire
Feb 21, 2020 23:31:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Rob Hanesworth on Feb 21, 2020 23:31:04 GMT -5
Likely they'll be killed so not or problem. It should be quite clear that this is an assessment, not a preference. Bruce remembers clearly, and with disgust, the murders and "re-educations" that occurred in Vietnam after we pulled out that this country did nothing to stop. That is abundantly clear in his postings. His statement that the same is likely to occur again in this instance is a very reasonable one and certainly not something to cheap shot. Assessment is not preference. And who here believes we will reenter the Afghan battlefield once we are fully out in order to stop the "domestic rearrangements" that are certain to occur? I guess I will just have to disagree. Twice in this thread Bruce has expressed that the death of non Americans doesn't matter. If he means something else, I don't see it.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 21, 2020 23:34:15 GMT -5
Bruce postings appear to show a callous disregard for human suffering. Whether he is correct in his assessment or not, it’s disgusting.
Mike
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 22, 2020 2:39:27 GMT -5
Captain chaos won the trade war, too. And as he said, covid-19 will just go away by itself.
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Post by brucemacneill on Feb 22, 2020 7:37:19 GMT -5
Bruce postings appear to show a callous disregard for human suffering. Whether he is correct in his assessment or not, it’s disgusting. Mike No it's actually a reference to your, that's all of you who let it happen in SE Asia, historically callous disregard for human suffering. Y'all have the blood of 5 million or so people on your hands and now you're going to do it again. We had Ho Chi Minh beaten in '68 until Water Cronkite convinced you that he was the good guy and we were the bad guys. Now the fight is against terrorists and again you thing we're the bad guys. That's disgusting to me.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 22, 2020 7:58:29 GMT -5
And? So what? Nobody else has either. Are we any worse off?
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Post by fauxmaha on Feb 22, 2020 8:03:03 GMT -5
Give all the women guns and ammo, teach them to use it and get tf out. Haven't mentioned lately how much I love you.
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Post by fauxmaha on Feb 22, 2020 8:08:37 GMT -5
...Afghanistan does share the same issue (South) Vietnam did. Both countries have/had a large urban center that to a certain degree adopted Western values and to a very definite degree prospered under the invasion of these values. And both countries have/had a much larger group of "everyone else" who didn't and haven't (adopted or prospered by). ... I think I'll bookmark that post and have it ready to deploy the next time an Electoral College discussion breaks out around here.
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Post by david on Feb 22, 2020 11:00:46 GMT -5
Bruce postings appear to show a callous disregard for human suffering. Whether he is correct in his assessment or not, it’s disgusting. Mike I think you are missing the sarcasm in his posts. I think Bruce means the exact opposite, or at least 160 degrees opposite, of what he typed. I have heard that there should be a sarcasm button for typing, but . . . .
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Post by epaul on Feb 22, 2020 22:13:24 GMT -5
I was there at the end of Vietnam, most us were. I heard ten thousand voices all blaming this that and each other for what happened at the end... but I did not hear one single voice saying, "Hey, guys, let's go back in there and fix it all up."
I don't know what will happen in Afghanistan, but man, is it ever setting up to be the same damn thing all over again. And again I am certain there will be ten thousand voices all blaming this, that, and each other for what went wrong. And I am quite sure I won't hear a single voice saying, "Hey, guys, let's go back in and fix it all up."
One might say "I really, really care" while another says "I really really don't care." But if the actions are the same, they are just words and there isn't a damn bit of difference twixt the two.
"Hey, guys, let's go back into Afghanistan and stop the meanies and fix every thing up all nice. Guys...? Guys...? Hey! I was only joking guys. Put the knives away."
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 23, 2020 0:48:20 GMT -5
Vietnam was a country before and after. And will still be for the foreseeable future. Quite strongly so.
Afghanistan wasn't and isn't. Tribe first, then religion, and then "country, what do you mean 'country'?"
1979 was watershed. Besides iran, the saudis had their own run-in with some religious extremists. Meanwhile, the US was literally sponsoring/instigating the first real jihad there in afghanistan.
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 23, 2020 10:42:21 GMT -5
Bruce postings appear to show a callous disregard for human suffering. Whether he is correct in his assessment or not, it’s disgusting. Mike No it's actually a reference to your, that's all of you who let it happen in SE Asia, historically callous disregard for human suffering. Y'all have the blood of 5 million or so people on your hands and now you're going to do it again. We had Ho Chi Minh beaten in '68 until Water Cronkite convinced you that he was the good guy and we were the bad guys. Now the fight is against terrorists and again you thing we're the bad guys. That's disgusting to me. And, as it turns out, Bruce is right. And actually it's Democrats that have been so callous in thier disregard for human suffering. Being 11 at the time I've never really been told the other side of the Vietnam story. This morning I ran across this (yes, it's a legitimate academic, that must make it true): Vietnam and the Paris Peace AccordsJust glad the current cease fire seems to be working. So far anyways. Yet another reason to abhor The Bern and his ilk.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 23, 2020 11:27:47 GMT -5
Legitimate academic. 😅😅😅
From wiki: PragerU, short for Prager University, is an American non-profit organization that creates videos on various political, economic and philosophical topics from an American conservative or right-wing perspective. The organization was co-founded by talk show host and writer Dennis Prager and Allen Estrin.[1][2] The videos are posted on YouTube and usually feature a speaker who lectures for about five minutes.[3][4] The organization relies on donations, and much of its early funding came from fracking billionaires Dan and Farris Wilks.[2][4] PragerU is not a university or academic institution.[5][4] It does not hold classes, does not grant certifications or diplomas, and is not accredited by any recognized body.[6]
Mike
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Cease Fire
Feb 23, 2020 11:33:35 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by aquaduct on Feb 23, 2020 11:33:35 GMT -5
Legitimate academic. 😅😅😅 From wiki: PragerU, short for Prager University, is an American non-profit organization that creates videos on various political, economic and philosophical topics from an American conservative or right-wing perspective. The organization was co-founded by talk show host and writer Dennis Prager and Allen Estrin.[1][2] The videos are posted on YouTube and usually feature a speaker who lectures for about five minutes.[3][4] The organization relies on donations, and much of its early funding came from fracking billionaires Dan and Farris Wilks.[2][4] PragerU is not a university or academic institution.[5][4] It does not hold classes, does not grant certifications or diplomas, and is not accredited by any recognized body.[6] Mike Did you bother to check out the speaker's credentials? I did. You want to tell me another lie?
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Post by epaul on Feb 23, 2020 11:42:10 GMT -5
I've pulled most this post. I rechecked, I re-read, and looked again, and too much wasn't right. The military collapse of the South Vietnam was surprisingly sudden, but units of the ARVN did fight and did so bravely. And while the performance of the South Vietnamese airforce wasn't effective in stopping the tide, it did take the air. And the lack of U.S. support for South Vietnam in the last two years did make the eventual fall of the South likely. And North Vietnam did factor the U.S. political chaos into account when making their final attack plans. The turmoil following Nixon's resignation was a window of opportunity. Their fear was B-52s would fly again, but their best guess was that they wouldn't.
There are enough 'facts' concerning the fall of South Vietnam to support several positions, but I'm retreating from much of my earlier one.
I do think it's safe to say the U.S. was as disorganized in those final days as South Vietnam was. Nixon was being impeached, the Democrats were set on pulling the plug, and the military's view of South Vietnam's situation was split between hopeless and pointless. And North Vietnam took advantage.
I'm sticking with this part. Through most of the war, the South Vietnam army had the advantage in numbers and equipment. And they had home field. With our military aid, the ARVN should have easily been able to handle the North. And with our troops and aircraft on their side, it should have been a rout. But it wasn't. And once on their own, it was game over. Something had to be missing.
Maybe the ARVN didn't have the home field advantage. Maybe there was no home field. that was what was missing.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 23, 2020 11:52:50 GMT -5
Legitimate academic. 😅😅😅 From wiki: PragerU, short for Prager University, is an American non-profit organization that creates videos on various political, economic and philosophical topics from an American conservative or right-wing perspective. The organization was co-founded by talk show host and writer Dennis Prager and Allen Estrin.[1][2] The videos are posted on YouTube and usually feature a speaker who lectures for about five minutes.[3][4] The organization relies on donations, and much of its early funding came from fracking billionaires Dan and Farris Wilks.[2][4] PragerU is not a university or academic institution.[5][4] It does not hold classes, does not grant certifications or diplomas, and is not accredited by any recognized body.[6] Mike Did you bother to check out the speaker's credentials? I did. You want to tell me another lie? Sorry Peter, for lies you’ll need to tune in to the Donald channel. Mike
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Cease Fire
Feb 23, 2020 11:55:18 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by aquaduct on Feb 23, 2020 11:55:18 GMT -5
Did you bother to check out the speaker's credentials? I did. You want to tell me another lie? Sorry Peter, for lies you’ll need to tune in to the Donald channel. Mike I get more than enough of them here.
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 23, 2020 17:31:50 GMT -5
... ...At the time South Vietnam fell, the country had a fully stocked by the very best stuff military, the best equipped by a mile military in the region. And, notably, the best equipped by ten country miles air force. Yet, when the tanks rolled across the border from the North, not only did the army turn and run without a fight, literally, the air force didn't take flight; an air force that could have should have decimated the NK tanks. There is no dispute on the turn and run army and absent air force, the only "conservative type" response to this (remember Strick?) was that the South Vietnamese were so demoralized by the Democratic congress' actions that they were too depressed to fight. Well, they had to come up with something. ... Well, the US at the time had an even more superior military, and was effectively run out of the country. Before the supposed tanks came. (And really, _tanks_ in vietnam? Not something with much tactical value for either side.) When the US left, it left its own writing on the wall, so to speak. (OTOH, it's great all that equipment and dazzle-dazzle stuff was left behind, and wasn't, at the time, brought home to militarize police forces across the US.) If anything is similar between vietnam and afghanistan, it's that "superior military" (or an ever increasing military budget) doesn't get you to the result you might think it would.
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Post by Cornflake on Feb 23, 2020 17:35:50 GMT -5
"If anything is similar between vietnam and afghanistan, it's that 'superior military'...doesn't get you to the result you might think it would."
If it did, we'd still be singing God Save the Queen.
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