Fun facts about old age, death, etc.

[Cornflake]

The longest-lived person that we know of was Jeanne Louise Calment, a French woman who died in 1997 at the age of 122. She didn't quit smoking until she was 117 and she ate two pounds of chocolate a week. She was active and healthy until the end.

By one estimate, curing all cancer would add only 3.2 years to the average life expectancy. Curing all heart disease would add 5.5 years. Curing all Alzheimer's would add only 19 days. That's because the people who develop these problems are old and if one thing doesn't get you, another one will.

The US is at the bottom among developed nations in almost every category of medical well-being, even when you adjust for socio-economic status (e.g., the fact that we have more poor people than Denmark does). At the same time we spend 2.5 times as much on health care as the average developed nation. We're 31st among nations in life expectancy, lagging behind Costa Rica and Chile. No one is sure why but unhealthy lifestyles are a prime suspect. We eat more and exercise less than people in most countries. We also run a significantly higher risk of dying from traffic accidents and guns. (Personally, I'd accept some added risk in return for less regimentation, but views about that differ.)

I learned all this in Bill Bryson's newest book, The Body, which I just finished. It's pretty good although it's like an intro course--it covers a lot of things but none of them very deeply.

[Dub]

I’ll try it. I enjoyed A Walk In the Woods.

[Jawbone]

Ah yes, "A walk in the woods", and I also read "A short history about everything", He's kinda like a blue collar philosopher kind of guy. I'll give "The body" a shot. Thanks Flake.

[Marshall]

Ha, ha, ha. That sure was fun !

[TKennedy]

I am really interested in the post pandemic statistical analysis of non-COVID related health indicators and mortality. It could be surprising.

I remember when I started orthopedic practice and we were swamped with work, routine appointments were 5-6 weeks out. There were quite a few cancellations as folks got better without any treatment.

Shannon and Coachdoc, whatdaya think from a family medicine perspective?

[millring]

I would think that the truly curious would wonder about the statistics that tell us that our healthcare is the worst in the developed world when other factors are so much more obvious. We're the most obese. We are BY FAR the most diverse. We are removing personal responsibility at an alarming rate. We also count mortality rates differently from the rest of the developed world -- including the way we count infant mortality. We attempt to save more and therefore our numbers look worse.

But, yeah. We suck.

[coachdoc]

On day one in Osteopathic school we were taught that given the opportunity, the body will heal itself. Our job is to remove obstacles to healing. That philosophy gets lost along the way, but is has more than a grain of truth in it.

[concertinagirl]

What I am about to write are simply observations based on my experience. No scientific study involved. Just some very basic thoughts on quality vs. quantity of life and how much control do we really have.

I’ve worked in Skilled Nursing Facilities for 30+ years. I have treated hundreds (maybe even more) of patients well into their 90’s. I have even done therapy with a patient who turned 108 during her time in rehab, walked out (with the use of a walker) and went home to live independently. I’ve always wondered why do some people make to their 90’s and others don’t. Many of those 90 somethings I treated SMOKED for much of their lives. Never once met a 90 something who was a vegetarian. Some claimed to have never exercised, although I believe life in general was far more physically rigorous in their day. The only common denominator that I could see was that they were all rail thin. Never met an obese 90 something. Not to say they aren’t out there, I just never saw them in rehab.

My own father is a good example of what I’ve witnessed through the years. He smoked a pack per day until he was diagnosed with lung cancer. He walked daily up to the day of his surgery. He enjoyed a shot of “Schnapps” each evening. He was six foot tall and weighed 150 lbs. (rail thin by my standards). He died two months later after having surgery. He was 89. Still a pretty good run, I’d say.

I am certainly not condoning smoking or not exercising as I neither smoke and work-out daily. With that being said, I think genetics has to be a big factor determining longevity. Some of those folks I treated, probably should have died 30 years before I met them based on their lifestyle. We all know people no where near 90 who have died of cancer, heart disease etc. One of my best friends never smoked, ran marathons and WAS a vegetarian. She died of breast cancer at 58. She was rail thin - so perhaps that shoots my theory.

Something else that was an eye-opener for me. When I was fresh out of college, I met a patient who was turning 100. I went into her room and with my “Merry Sunshine” bubbly demeanor said, “Good Morning Mrs. Jones and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!” She looked at me with sad eyes and said, “What’s happy about today?” “I’ve lived without the love of my life (husband) for over 20 years.” “All of my friends are dead.” She looked at my left hand and saw my ring. She said, “Young woman, what if you woke up and your husband was gone and so were all of your friends.” “Would you feel like celebrating?” I hugged her and didn’t have a clue as to what to say. I didn’t get it then. But I sure do get it now.

[Marshall]

Jul 10, 2020 8:06:01 GMT -5 concertinagirl said:

 Never once met a 90 something who was a vegetarian.

Ha ha. I had to chuckle. 

[concertinagirl]

Jul 10, 2020 8:16:24 GMT -5 Marshall said:

Jul 10, 2020 8:06:01 GMT -5 concertinagirl said:

 Never once met a 90 something who was a vegetarian.

Ha ha. I had to chuckle. 

It’s true. 


My attempt at vegetarianism:  My father was a butcher in a local shoppe on the South Side of Milwaukee.  We always had meat...everyday.  I remember telling my parents I am going to be a vegetarian.  “I think it is a healthier way to eat.”  I think that was my teenage rebellion starting to kick in. I won’t tell you what my father said...I will let you imagine that conversation.  LOL!  However, I gave it a whirl.  I lasted about two weeks.  I was CONSTANTLY hungry and one day found myself sitting with a box of Oreo cookies and a pot of coffee.  It dawned on me that “this makes no sense.”  I resumed eating meat and never looked back.  

[TKennedy]

I came to the conclusion after years of treating patients that there are models of people just like there are models of cars. I think a lot of it is the wiring harness you are bequeathed at birth.

The best model? Absolutely no doubt about it. An older skinny, high energy, Scandinavian/German/Eastern European farm woman with a positive can-do personality. They are pretty much indestructible.

[RickW]

Jul 9, 2020 22:19:39 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

.

I remember when I started orthopedic practice and we were swamped with work, routine appointments were 5-6 weeks out. There were quite a few cancellations as folks got better without any treatment.

That was me. Torn cartilage in knee from running. Stopped running. Went to see the ortho several weeks later. He asked me how it felt. I said, actually it feels fine now. He said, you fixed it yourself, because you stopped running.

Never did that foolish shit again.

[concertinagirl]

Jul 10, 2020 9:20:58 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

The best model? Absolutely no doubt about it. An older skinny, high energy, Scandinavian/German/Eastern European farm woman with a positive can-do personality. They are pretty much indestructible.

You've just described my grandmother.  "Buscia" was raised on a farm in Poland before emigrating to the United States.  She was well into her 80's when she would still get up on a ladder (much to my mother's dismay) to pick apples so she could bake pies with them.  She was known to smoke a pipe every now and again (I kid you not) and lard was a staple in her cooking.  My mother said that during the war butter was a luxury (I'm not sure if it was due to low supply or they couldn't afford it) so lard and sugar sandwiches were very common.  Yet she still lived to her late 80's as did my mother.

I eat salad regularly and work-out daily...maybe I need to rethink this???  LOL!
  

[Cornflake]

I think genes and luck are a big part of it and we can't control either. I've also long thought--not on the basis of any real evidence--that exercise can make up for a lot of sins.

[dradtke]

Jul 10, 2020 9:20:58 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

I came to the conclusion after years of treating patients that there are models of people just like there are models of cars. I think a lot of it is the wiring harness you are bequeathed at birth.

The best model? Absolutely no doubt about it. An older skinny, high energy, Scandinavian/German/Eastern European farm woman with a positive can-do personality. They are pretty much indestructible.

That's my mother's side of the family, all into the 90s and a few 100s.

[sidheguitarmichael]

Three points, apropos of not much. #1, one of K and I’s best friends is 83. We met him through the boxing gym when he was 79. He started taking voice and piano from K at age 80, and actually sang and played piano in her last 3 student recitals. At the last one, his piano playing was pretty good—about what you’d expect out of a diligent student who practices every day, after 3 years. He was written up in our local glossy magazine for the boxing thing—he looks like a guy in his 60s who keeps himself in great shape—like one of those retired special forces guys. Pretty cool: looking 63 when you’re 83. This weekend, he’s coming over to build some stuff in our garage; when he moved in with one of his kids, he preemptively willed K his wood shop, on the condition that he could use it, so we have a wood shop in out garage. He’s the first guy I’d call to help us out with a work project like that; his ethic is just better than most younger folks. Eats light, but what he wants; learns new things; exercises 5 days a week. I definitely look up to him.

#2, I tore the shit out of the meniscus in my left knee 4 years ago—twisted it on the mat in jiu-jitsu fundamentals class. Due to a combination of extensive wait times to see a doc, general lack of money, and a combatives course (taught by a friend) that I’d been signed up a year in advance for, as well as several high-profile summer gigs and contracted camps in a row, it was a couple of months before I could seriously consider getting in for surgery. By that time, I had talked to a LOT of people who’d had torn meniscus repairs, and they all recommended avoiding it if possible—it’s important to note that these were all (relatively) young, unusually active people. One athletic guy in his 40s was looking at replacements due to bone on bone issues arising from work done in his early 30s. Sobering. So I limped around for 3 years, and did physical therapy exercises. I got to know the security guys on campus, because they were always pulling over and asking me if I needed a lift to class. At one of the same summer camps the second year, the organizer’s first words were “Dude, you’re still limping?” Point being, while recovery was forever-long, at this juncture, I have no limp, I can ruck 65 lbs up deeply wooded hills and walk for miles, and I *was* squatting 1.5x my body weight, until the gyms closed for COVID. Right now, I’m sure the ortho guys on the forum are looking at me in their mind’s eye like I have a boner growing out of my forehead, but that’s the way it was, and is. Time will tell how things hold up long term but, the 3-year mark was a magical turning point. Said knee has held up just fine under some pressure that most people don’t put their joints under, though; so far, so good.

Lastly, on the obesity thing; I currently weigh the same as I did when I graduated HS. I’d like to see that go up by 7-8lbs, because I’ve lost the muscle mass I was carrying when K and I were taking advantage of the single adjunct benefit provided by the ‘ol Jesuit U: free use of the mega-million dollar gym facilities, but I’ve worked to keep the weight off. I also gave up drinking soda pop, and consuming deserts—outside of special occasions and holidays—back during freshman year in college. I realize the follies of applying correlation to causation, but my sense is that a diet high on organics and low on processed foods—especially sugar, regular exercise, and staying on top of my weight is the main reason that I’ve never had major health problems until my eyes went completely sideways. (As an aside, the folks reading the extensive questionnaires I filled out for the docs and pre-surgery couldn’t get over the facts that I was on no meds, and didn’t have any idea if I was allergic to common drugs. “I dunno, doc, I’ve never had that one either. I’d appreciate it if you’d keep on your toes during the procedure, though...” )

I’m no medical guy, but my best advice to younger people is stay active, and forget that soda pop exists in the world. I may drop dead of an aneurism or the coronas next week, but I’ll be in good shape, look young for my age, and be buried in 32-33” pants if it happens—mainly due to staying marginally active, and no soda pop after age 18.

[Marshall]

Jul 10, 2020 9:20:58 GMT -5 TKennedy said:

The best model? Absolutely no doubt about it. An older skinny, high energy, Scandinavian/German/Eastern European farm woman with a positive can-do personality. They are pretty much indestructible.

And you don't want to get in her way.

[concertinagirl]

Jul 10, 2020 11:02:29 GMT -5 Cornflake said:

 I've also long thought--not on the basis of any real evidence--that exercise can make up for a lot of sins.

I am not sure what to think, especially based on what I have observed through the years.  What I do know is that regular exercise contributes to the “quality” aspect of life for me.  I just feel better both mentally and physically after a long walk, or swim or whatever.  I also know that regular exercise keeps me in good enough shape that when I did have an opportunity to spend an evening dancing or take some fun class at the gym that I had/have the stamina to it.  Whether or not it will add years to my life...who knows?  

Quick story:  A few years back I was in a bad car crash.  I was car number two in a line up of a four car collision.  Car number four was a pick up truck driven by an 18 year old who was texting and hit car number three at full speed who then crashed into me and I crashed into car number one.  Cars one thru three were at a stoplight.

My car was totaled.  I stepped out of that car and my first thought was to thank God that no one in this crash was killed.  If you saw the cars you wouldn’t have thought that.  

When I got home that night I did think to myself...”I do everything right.”  “I eat healthy, don’t smoke, exercise etc. etc. etc...and I could have died anyway.”  That was a HUGE wakeup call for me.   I REALLY DID make a major life change within five months after that crash.  That change led me to Lar.  I am glad “my number wasn’t up” that night.  

[RickW]

Jan, I'd agree with you, and Don, too, and Michael. Since we started to work out 4 times a week when I fully retired, I'm so much better, mentally and physically. I don't get sore all the time just from doing small things. I don't pull things. My back is a million times better. And most definitely, it improves my outlook on life, just lifts me up.

Michael, I lost 7 pounds when the gyms closed down. Couldn't believe it, how much I'd gained.

What's most important with the exercise is the main theme of the book, "Younger Next Year," which we've discussed before. As you get older, you lose bone and muscle mass, and flexibility. The only way to keep up, as long as you can, is exercise. My favourite line from the book says that now I'm retired, that's my job, making it all last as long as I can.

[majorminor]

"There's more old drunks than there are old doctors so I guess I better have another round...."