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Post by james on Dec 4, 2020 17:42:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure that it will come as a revelation to most people that the effects of the pandemic and of public health measures are much different on some sectors of society/the population than others. *V. quick Google* ETA - In the UK, The Department for Health and Social care has confirmed that whether or not you have had the virus before will have no relevance as to whether you are prioritised for the vaccine.The order of prioritisation is based on work, health and age factors – it is not based on whether you have been tested positive for the virus before.
More UK info summarised at link. (No compulsion apparently. No particularly significant problem with vaccine averse free-riders here thankfully) inews.co.uk/news/health/vaccine-covid-do-need-had-coronavirus-immunity-test-first-pfizer-vaccination-780329
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Post by Jawbone on Dec 4, 2020 17:53:38 GMT -5
I wonder if I will be required to have the vaccine even though I have had the virus. I don't like the word 'required' in this instance.
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Post by theevan on Dec 4, 2020 18:05:51 GMT -5
I wonder if I will be required to have the vaccine even though I have had the virus. I don't like the word 'required' in this instance. Me too. Even if overweening mama Government resists the urge to mandate, air lines, employers, other countries (entry visa) and so on can require the vax.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 4, 2020 18:18:58 GMT -5
Mandatory vaccination for various diseases has been a public health option for more than a century, based on state authority to enforce public-health measures--just as the health department can close a restaurant for violating sanitary codes. When I was growing up, kids couldn't attend public schools without a smallpox vaccination. When I traveled to Europe in 1964, I would not have been readmitted without proof of smallpox vaccination. In addition, TB carriers can be quarantined. (Also those with cholera, smallpox, and plague.)
And private companies are allowed to require vaccination as a condition of employment--with the possibility of religious or medical exemptions.
Public health is one of those areas where some liberties are constrained. And this is not a new issue.
As for those who can demonstrate immunity thanks to previous exposure--I would think that a reliable antibody test would also allow an exemption.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 4, 2020 18:52:06 GMT -5
On the Parable of the Two Brothers:
When I trace the problems of the blue-collar brother, what I see is the result of the failure of politicians to address the non-medical problems that follow on the spread of the disease. And not only Trump and his minions (who encouraged everyone to ignore or dispute or defy public-health measures) but the legislators who failed to supply effective economic support to those put out of work. I suppose the state bureaucrats whose unemployment-insurance systems were broken by the sudden surge of claims are less responsible--but not the generations of polticians whose hostility to safety-net programs guaranteed that they would be inadequate even in ordinary times. And McConnell and his Senate crew are beneath contempt.
Zakaria's take on the culture/class war is odd in that he doesn't pay much attention to the role of the financial sector, which is not a cultural elite but a predatory, exploitative gang of resource-extractors. And the propagandists and apologists they have funded have spent two decades convincing working people that it's the pointy-headed intellectuals who are their enemies--not the bean-counters and quants and vulture capitalists and union busters who couldn't distinguish between a poem and a public-offering prospectus without Sparknotes.
And as a matter of epidemiology, we are all in this together, because the virus is going to spread according to the nature of viruses, and it is our behavior that affects how far, how fast, and among whom.
(BTW--Was this a private communication or published somewhere?)
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Post by TKennedy on Dec 4, 2020 19:45:10 GMT -5
I wonder if I will be required to have the vaccine even though I have had the virus. You could have a T shirt made with a picture of your antibody titer report.
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Post by millring on Dec 4, 2020 19:57:39 GMT -5
I wish everybody on this board would watch that video. I'd be interested to hear comments. We already know.
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Post by Village Idiot on Dec 4, 2020 21:15:00 GMT -5
And as a matter of epidemiology, we are all in this together, because the virus is going to spread according to the nature of viruses, and it is our behavior that affects how far, how fast, and among whom. Indeed.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Dec 4, 2020 21:31:28 GMT -5
This week, I read that no, we are not all in the same boat. We are all in the same storm, but some of us are riding it out in yachts and some in canoes.
That resonates with me. I am profoundly aware of how little the pandemic has affected me and my family economically. For Nancy and I, our SS and pensions continue to roll in. All of our family have kept their jobs.
I hear stories of despair, people paying rent with credit cards until they max out. Evictions, depression, even suicide. We have tried to help where we can but know we aren't doing enough.
Same storm. A vast difference in boats.
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Post by millring on Dec 5, 2020 6:20:36 GMT -5
That's a gentle way of calling someone a liar.
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Post by fauxmaha on Dec 5, 2020 8:34:41 GMT -5
This week, I read that no, we are not all in the same boat. We are all in the same storm, but some of us are riding it out in yachts and some in canoes. That resonates with me. I am profoundly aware of how little the pandemic has affected me and my family economically. For Nancy and I, our SS and pensions continue to roll in. All of our family have kept their jobs. I hear stories of despair, people paying rent with credit cards until they max out. Evictions, depression, even suicide. We have tried to help where we can but know we aren't doing enough. Same storm. A vast difference in boats. That's perfect. Feathering into Zakaria's video, I would add this: Those of us riding this out in the relative comfort and safety of our "yachts" have what you might call a psychological incentive to exaggerate the threat. Everyone being the hero in his own story, we must find our dragon. Zakaria's furloughed oil field worker has no difficulty finding HIS dragon. There's nothing abstract about immediate economic ruin. But it's far worse than that. I think Zakaria used the phrase "feeling worthless", and he's exactly on point. This is what Marxist materialism has never, and can never, understand. Even if you accept Russell's formulation (something like "the material deprivations being experienced wouldn't be happening if only conservatives hadn't resisted our program for all these decades"), you're still left with an enormous spiritual deficit. That's the most brutal dragon of all. That's the dragon that no one else can slay for you. "There is no prosthetic for an amputated spirit". This is all more evidence of the inversion I've been talking about. Loosely, using Rob's metaphor, we've got people lounging on the decks of their yachts, looking at people struggling in heavy seas in their canoes and thinking "those people are doing it wrong". That's almost a perfect description of a 1960's caricature of a "rich Republican (eg, Thurston Howell III). But today, the guy on the yacht is, as Zakaria described, urban, with an advanced degree, working for a multi-national corporation. Care to guess the partisan breakdown of THAT demographic? So here we are, on our yachts, heroically fending off our dragons, as it must be. And the one thing we dare not allow is the possibility that the guy frantically bailing out his canoe, desperately struggling to keep himself and his family afloat, looks at our dragon and laughs.
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Post by Marshall on Dec 5, 2020 9:28:35 GMT -5
I wish everybody on this board would watch that video. I'd be interested to hear comments. FAKE NEWS !(No. Just kidding. It's very good. Too bad our President can't be so eloquent.)
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Post by Marshall on Dec 5, 2020 9:34:09 GMT -5
Marxist Materialism, - My, my, there's a phrase for ya.
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Post by Hobson on Dec 5, 2020 10:26:42 GMT -5
I know that people are suffering because they've lost their jobs. But they're invisible to me. I don't personally know anybody who is out of work. I barely get out of the house, so I don't see people standing in line to get help. Relatives who have blue collar jobs are still at work in auto parts stores and grocery stores and such. I know that their risk of getting sick is high, but they are employed. Store clerks that I talk to on my rare outings are raking in overtime pay.
About the only thing affecting my extended family is having the kids attending school at home on a laptop. Oh, and the missed funerals, graduations, birthdays, etc.
I'm not indifferent. Just isolated. I do my small part by donating extra money to the Needy Family Fund at church. But I'm living in a different world than the people who benefit from the fund.
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Post by dradtke on Dec 5, 2020 10:33:29 GMT -5
That's a gentle way of calling someone a liar. Like Jesus?
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Post by TKennedy on Dec 5, 2020 12:03:05 GMT -5
One way the folks on their yachts can make a difference is by donating to a reputable non-profit that either directly offers relief to those bailing out their boats or carefully vets and funds appropriate agencies that do. An agency that works locally is especially attractive to me.
From my years long association with the organization, I would suggest giving your local United Way a hard look. I have worked with three different directors during my three six year terms on the local board and all have been outstanding human beings and the organization exemplary in carefully vetting grant recipients. Roughly 98 cents of every dollar stays local to fund agencies or public impact programs in the areas of health, financial stability, and education. The board members have been outstanding as well taking their responsibilities very seriously for the most part.
We just finished vetting applicants for a block of local state pandemic relief dollars we were asked to manage.
United Way is only one suggestion, there are many others. Even ordering carry out several times a week from restaurants you support and leaving a generous tip is something.
With the proper direction of donated money ( or volunteer time) to programs and agencies that will make a difference in dealing with the inequities of the pandemic the upper tier nautical types can have a big impact. It does not all have to come from the government.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 5, 2020 13:28:08 GMT -5
Those of us riding this out in the relative comfort and safety of our "yachts" have what you might call a psychological incentive to exaggerate the threat. <snip> This is what Marxist materialism has never, and can never, understand. Even if you accept Russell's formulation (something like "the material deprivations being experienced wouldn't be happening if only conservatives hadn't resisted our program for all these decades"), you're still left with an enormous spiritual deficit. That's the most brutal dragon of all. That's the dragon that no one else can slay for you. "There is no prosthetic for an amputated spirit". Spirit schmirit. People have to pay the rent and buy groceries, and asshole politicians have offered half measures for direct relief of individuals--while designing a business relief package that wound up benefitting large corporations. Republicans have insisted on putting the burden on the states, with the predictable results. Trickle-down economics is a lie, but shit still rolls downhill. Trump and his enablers and toadies did everything they could to minimize the seriousness of the pandemic and their amen corner in the media faithfully echoed the lies, with the result that a significant portion of the public will not adopt the public-health measures that can ameliorate the spread of the virus. "Marxist materialism" is a nifty dismissive phrase, but its also what Marxists call a mystification. What do you think has moved the left to support collective bargaining, labor laws, and social welfare programs? As far as I can tell, it has been concern for material conditions. The spirit can take care of itself, once the body is fed and safe.
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Post by theevan on Dec 5, 2020 14:30:55 GMT -5
There is no ameliorating the spread of the virus. It has proven to us that we are the toadies and it is the master, no matter what we do. Bow down and let come what may.
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Post by theevan on Dec 5, 2020 14:34:58 GMT -5
OK, that was a bit smirky.
But when absolutely NO quarter is given to the millions of John Bauman's out there then I think the policies are way out of whack. Would the results have been that much different had the restrictions not been so draconian?
If you say yes, and justify the suffering of millions, go look them in the eye and tell them it is for their own good.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 5, 2020 15:50:36 GMT -5
It might be useful to separate the measures necessary to public health from those necessary to public economic welfare. There is plenty of evidence that "draconian" public health measures do have an effect on the spread of the virus. Of course, since some of them are behavioral and depend on public acceptance and cooperation, they also need to be supported by public-relations efforts, which we did not get from the White House. There is also evidence that some big- (and not-so-big-) government measures can ameliorate the economic effects of, say, business shutdown policies. The federal stimulus check (that Trump delayed so it could be printed with his signature) apparently helped--though it could have helped more if it hadn't been sent to people who didn't need it, like our household, where we sat on the deck of our yacht, sipping Manhattans and wondering what the little people were doing. (I guess means testing is for poor people.) And the $600/week supplemental unemployment benefit seemed to help keep quite a few families afloat. When that CARES Act money ran out at the end of July, some of the slack was picked up by a $400/week payment, with the individual states contributing $100. That program ends on 12/27, and it seems that the Republicans have remembered the hazards of the deficit, so getting new relief measures through is going slow. And the GOP has resurrected another of their favorite notions, that a generous benefit package encourages people not to work. As though the possibility of severe illness weren't already a disincentive*. And I repeat that the historical hostility to unemployment programs guaranteed that a sudden huge surge of applicants would overwhelm some systems and lock them up. And the eviction moratorium was badly designed and implemented enough that many landlords just ignored it and tenants had to know exactly how to invoke it. And it also runs out at the end of the year. The economic means to look after everyone are there, but with the GOP's dedication to low taxes and small government (which translates as small for thee and big bucks for me). Those of us on our yachts and palatial country estates and luxury penthouses could easily afford a tax increase--it wouldn't even have to be permanent, just a surtax for the duration. There would still be plenty of coin left over for us to do our Scrooge McDuck swimming-in-the-money-bin thing. * This is not a trivial matter. Had the university not moved to on-line classes, I would have urged Cezarija to take sick leave or even retire on the spot rather than spend hours every week in a closed environment filled with possible disease vectors. (And don't kid yourself, college students are shitty at prudent behavior.) We have the good fortune to be able to afford that kind of response, but the Somalis and Mexicans working in the local meat-processing plants--or the employees of Tyson's Waterloo facility--didn't have that advantage.
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