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Post by millring on Dec 5, 2020 19:02:44 GMT -5
That's a gentle way of calling someone a liar. Like Jesus? No, nothing like that at all. Great zinger, though. Got you lots of "likes".
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Post by PaulKay on Dec 6, 2020 9:09:53 GMT -5
Have patience so you don't become a patient.
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Post by millring on Dec 6, 2020 9:13:43 GMT -5
One way the folks on their yachts can make a difference is by donating to a reputable non-profit that either directly offers relief to those bailing out their boats or carefully vets and funds appropriate agencies that do. An agency that works locally is especially attractive to me. From my years long association with the organization, I would suggest giving your local United Way a hard look. I have worked with three different directors during my three six year terms on the local board and all have been outstanding human beings and the organization exemplary in carefully vetting grant recipients. Roughly 98 cents of every dollar stays local to fund agencies or public impact programs in the areas of health, financial stability, and education. The board members have been outstanding as well taking their responsibilities very seriously for the most part. We just finished vetting applicants for a block of local state pandemic relief dollars we were asked to manage. United Way is only one suggestion, there are many others. Even ordering carry out several times a week from restaurants you support and leaving a generous tip is something. With the proper direction of donated money ( or volunteer time) to programs and agencies that will make a difference in dealing with the inequities of the pandemic the upper tier nautical types can have a big impact. It does not all have to come from the government. That will make the folks in the yacht feel good. We're still not in this thing together. It doesn't do ANYTHING toward helping those in the water. The difference between getting a little handout here and there and making a living is night and day.
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Post by theevan on Dec 6, 2020 9:26:51 GMT -5
Right John. And being in the water isn't because economic factors sunk you. It is because of random and often capricious government edicts shut down your ability to stay above water.
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Post by millring on Dec 6, 2020 9:35:40 GMT -5
And BMW isn't making better drivers.
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Post by TKennedy on Dec 6, 2020 10:54:16 GMT -5
It’s not all about the “instant guilt relief for the rich donor” “tug at the heartstrings”programs that you call handouts John. Those, while great for marketing and attracting donors are a tiny part of what an outfit like United Way does. They are far from my favorites.
We try to focus a great deal on vetting and funding agencies that make a long term difference in raising people out of poverty. Not very exciting sound bite stuff but programs in the areas of early childhood education/literacy, in school help for slow learners, day care support for single moms trying to further their education, and adult literacy agencies can have a big long term impact.
We also support legal assistance, mental health, and financial education agencies.
We just got done allocating a block of pandemic funds from the state that we were asked to manage. Not a penny went to handouts. The majority went to applicants in the education arena to help manage the enormous stresses the pandemic is placing on teachers and schools. Some also went to housing and an agency that helps families trying to balance going to work and managing their life with kids stuck at home with virtual learning.
You did strike a major chord though, a lot of donors like the visual of themselves or their church or business packing food bags for a food drop or distributing Christmas presents or winter coats. It’s definitely a guilt massager with instant gratification but sometimes even a temporary stopgap measure will help someone over a transient rough spot. Even a single hailstone makes a dent.
Sometimes it takes stuff like that to draw donors in and get them to see the deeper picture of what we do that actually makes a long term difference in people’s lives. A few will get it and become long term supporters. Many won’t.
People have enormous misconceptions about what United Way does. For the most part it’s not a hand out agency more of a hand up.
By the way how are you coming with Skylark? 😊😊😊
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Post by Marshall on Dec 6, 2020 12:10:37 GMT -5
Right John. And being in the water isn't because economic factors sunk you. It is because of random and often capricious government edicts shut down your ability to stay above water. They are not random and capricious. But if you're on the receiving end of such bad news, the difference is negligible.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 6, 2020 14:15:39 GMT -5
Metaphors about yachts and drowning people do not address the actuality of the effects of the pandemic. Nor does attributing motives and attitudes based on such metaphors. Nor does constructing class-warfare arguments that conflate education or expertise with economic self-interest or indifference or condescension.
What we are all in together is an environment through which a pathogen is spreading. Vulnerability to the pathogen is governed by human behavior, and some of that behavior is more easily achieved by the well-off. Others are unable to take the advice of public-health specialists or are actively discouraged by management--say, line workers at meat-processing plants. Some can't afford to. Some are "essential" and are not well served by their employers. (I'm thinking of grocery store personnel.) And some of the well-off ignore expert advice and get sick. As do some of the defiant or misinformed or delusional of any educational or economic status--say, crowded together at bars or wedding receptions. And if I go about maskless in crowded stores full of maskless shoppers, or hang out all evening in bars, or get on an airplane, I'm right in the viral soup with everybody else, and the local infection rate gives me a good chance of getting sick. And of giving it to Cezarija. That is what we're all in together.
Those who defy or ignore the protocols make the environment more dangerous for everyone. It's that simple.
The economic effects of the pandemic--whether from mandated shutdowns or non-mandated collapse of business activity--is something to be addressed by the rest of government: unemployment insurance, direct relief payments, debt relief, eviction abatement, and whatever else can deal with the outward-rippling consequences of an economy slamming into a disease that can disable or kill.
Those matters are not being addressed by politicians who minimize or deny the direness of the situation, or who drag their feet designing ameliorative measures, or who pass the buck to jurisdictions already overburdened with local effects. Voluntary charitable activity helps, but it doesn't scale up well enough or reach far enough to handle a national crisis.
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Post by theevan on Dec 6, 2020 14:43:58 GMT -5
Metaphors about yachts and drowning people do not address the actuality of the effects of the pandemic. Nor does attributing motives and attitudes based on such metaphors. Nor does constructing class-warfare arguments that conflate education or expertise with economic self-interest or indifference or condescension. What we are all in together is an environment through which a pathogen is spreading. Vulnerability to the pathogen is governed by human behavior, and some of that behavior is more easily achieved by the well-off. Others are unable to take the advice of public-health specialists or are actively discouraged by management--say, line workers at meat-processing plants. Some can't afford to. Some are "essential" and are not well served by their employers. (I'm thinking of grocery store personnel.) And some of the well-off ignore expert advice and get sick. As do some of the defiant or misinformed or delusional of any educational or economic status--say, crowded together at bars or wedding receptions. And if I go about maskless in crowded stores full of maskless shoppers, or hang out all evening in bars, or get on an airplane, I'm right in the viral soup with everybody else, and the local infection rate gives me a good chance of getting sick. And of giving it to Cezarija. That is what we're all in together. Those who defy or ignore the protocols make the environment more dangerous for everyone. It's that simple. The economic effects of the pandemic--whether from mandated shutdowns or non-mandated collapse of business activity--is something to be addressed by the rest of government: unemployment insurance, direct relief payments, debt relief, eviction abatement, and whatever else can deal with the outward-rippling consequences of an economy slamming into a disease that can disable or kill. Those matters are not being addressed by politicians who minimize or deny the direness of the situation, or who drag their feet designing ameliorative measures, or who pass the buck to jurisdictions already overburdened with local effects. Voluntary charitable activity helps, but it doesn't scale up well enough or reach far enough to handle a national crisis. Where does that money come from?
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Post by theevan on Dec 6, 2020 14:49:39 GMT -5
Right John. And being in the water isn't because economic factors sunk you. It is because of random and often capricious government edicts shut down your ability to stay above water. They are not random and capricious. But if you're on the receiving end of such bad news, the difference is negligible. Yes they are. Home Depot is essential but my local hardware store is not. They shut down al fresco dining in LA but allow a film company to set up food tables across the street. Shall I go on? Random and capricious. Some technocrat is unwittingly picking winners and losers.
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 6, 2020 15:56:00 GMT -5
Where does that money come from? From the taxes we yacht-owners should be willing to pay to make sure that we don't have to watch drowners from the poopdeck. Of course, we do throw lifesavers (in the form of free-will charitable activity) to those in our immediate vicinity, but we hear that every marina has floundering swimmers, so we figure that some more-organized and financially muscular action is needed. Unfortunately, many of those in charge of such organizational muscle think that we yacht-owners are all Scooge McDucky and would rather roll in our dough than give it to the probably-undeserving less fortunate. But argumentum ad metaphoram aside, I have no problem with a tax increase aimed at maintaining social-economic safety-net measures. Or at fixing potholes, or policing, or building libraries. I do, however, deplore sloppily-designed programs that allow big corporations to masquerade as small businesses. But that's another conversation.
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Post by theevan on Dec 6, 2020 17:28:43 GMT -5
Not enough money in the world for that.
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Post by jdd2 on Dec 6, 2020 17:32:35 GMT -5
Maybe trump will finally get round to an infrastructure week before he's out. Or a big beautiful healthcare plan (cheaper and better).
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Post by Russell Letson on Dec 6, 2020 18:07:31 GMT -5
Is there enough money in the world to cover the costs of not containing the virus? There's no cheap way out of this--we can pay now for whatever measures slow the spread while we get a handle on immunization and treatment, or we can pay later when an unfettered pandemic crashes large parts of the economy anyway. Assuming immunity is long lasting, to achieve herd immunity in the U.S. without a vaccine would likely require more than 230 million Americans become infected. Even if mortality rates are at the low end of the estimates, there would be more than a million deaths.
Mortality is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this disease. For every death, there are many more hospitalizations and ICU admissions. Patients who are not hospitalized can still have severe illness and be debilitated for weeks. Long term effects of COVID- 19 are just being defined but are likely to be significant in some infected patients. Add to this the risk of strokes and other clotting events in otherwise healthy patients as well as multi-system inflammatory syndrome in children, and the idea of pursuing herd immunity through infection becomes painfully ill-conceived. www.lung.org/blog/understanding-herd-immunityMore than 200 million infections and associated mortality and long-term effects (which would include the crashing of the healthcare system) are not something an economy just shakes off.
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Post by t-bob on Dec 6, 2020 19:58:04 GMT -5
This flu immunization What happens in disastrous floods, fires, flus? Who’s coming the scammers, carpetbaggers, scammers , and the greed people? We just have to get the flu19 shots. Something will slowly wane the pandemic
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Post by millring on Dec 7, 2020 5:29:11 GMT -5
Metaphors about yachts and drowning people do not address the actuality of the effects of the pandemic. . But that's not it at all. That's not my point about parables and truth at all, is it? You referred to Jeff's story as a parable. It wasn't presented as such. But you called it a "parable" for a reason. There were any number of ways you could have referred to it, but you -- a person inordinately concerned with the accuracy of words -- referred to it as a "parable". Parables are fictions used to tell a truth. But they are fictions. Jesus wasn't upset when the disciples asked why he spoke in such riddles instead of speaking plain truth. He copped to it. But in the context of this thread, Jeff told a story he purported to be true. Not "truth". True. Literal. An actual event told by an actual person. You referred to THAT as a "parable" -- thereby expressing doubt that it was a real story. Thereby expressing that you thought the story to be just one more made up story to make a point. It weakens the point of Jeff's story and my plight that you don't think they are real. You think we are making some argument by presenting fictions to make our case. That's what I meant.
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Post by theevan on Dec 7, 2020 7:10:54 GMT -5
More than 200 million infections and associated mortality and long-term effects (which would include the crashing of the healthcare system) are not something an economy just shakes off. Nor are the current basket of "solutions". Why does it have to be one way or another? Or, as you might say, "totalizing". Perhaps the phase 1, 2 & 3 (now they're adding decimals to make it seem Real Scientific) is an attempt at doing both. But, boy, SO clumsy and accompanied by loads of unintended consequences.
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Post by jdd2 on Dec 7, 2020 8:46:43 GMT -5
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Post by dradtke on Dec 7, 2020 12:08:26 GMT -5
Metaphors about yachts and drowning people do not address the actuality of the effects of the pandemic. . But that's not it at all. That's not my point about parables and truth at all, is it? You referred to Jeff's story as a parable. It wasn't presented as such. But you called it a "parable" for a reason. There were any number of ways you could have referred to it, but you -- a person inordinately concerned with the accuracy of words -- referred to it as a "parable". Parables are fictions used to tell a truth. But they are fictions. Jesus wasn't upset when the disciples asked why he spoke in such riddles instead of speaking plain truth. He copped to it. But in the context of this thread, Jeff told a story he purported to be true. Not "truth". True. Literal. An actual event told by an actual person. You referred to THAT as a "parable" -- thereby expressing doubt that it was a real story. Thereby expressing that you thought the story to be just one more made up story to make a point. It weakens the point of Jeff's story and my plight that you don't think they are real. You think we are making some argument by presenting fictions to make our case. That's what I meant. Thank you for explaining that. Obviously I misunderstood you. I'm still confused, though, about this. Jeff told a story he purported to be true. Not "truth". True. The difference between truth and true escapes me. Literally true is more true than parable-y true? So Jesus' fictional truth about a Samaritan would have been more true if it was about a literal Samaritan? Hardly seems like a major point. (Besides, Jeff re-posted an article written by someone else. We have no way of knowing if it was literally true or embellished truth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 12:36:05 GMT -5
Not to be pedantic, but a parable need not be fictitious. Just brief.
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