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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 10:59:37 GMT -5
Concerning the Afghanistan pullout...
If the complete pullout of American forces was the objective, then how was the pullout an abject failure?
11 soldiers were killed by a suicide bomb (Isis, not Taliban). 0 would be ideal, but given all that could have gone wrong during this military withdrawal, 11 seems like a low figure. Yes, every death is a tragedy, and if 11 casualties reckons a complex military pullout from an unstable dangerous situation an abject failure, ok, pummel me and I'll accept it.
And, while I have no idea how accurate any of these figures are, the UN reckons that 124,000 Afghanistan refugees were airlifted out of Afghanistan under the watch of the U.S. military while they were conducting the extremely complex fraught with danger pullout from Afghanistan. Again, I could be wrong. Maybe 124,000 is a ridiculously low number and I deserve pummeling for my ignorance. But it strikes me as a pretty impressive number to evacuate under such harrowing conditions and it speaks both to the capability of the American forces and the needed cooperation that was negotiated for with the Taliban.
Again, a complete military pullout was the objective and that is how the action should be judged, and I think a fair analysis is, while it was wooly, it certainly could have gone a whole lot worse. A good outcome was not available. A disastrous one (for us) was avoided.
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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 10:59:55 GMT -5
Aquasays :
They pulled the guys with guns out first and left behind billions of dollars in perfectly good military hardware. A child could do better.
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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 11:21:31 GMT -5
Ok, the plan to publicly announce a pullout date of all our military troops was Trump's plan. Biden continued the plan. The plan is off the table in this political go round. All that is left for Trump people to criticize is the execution of the plan their guy put in motion.
"Pull the guys with guns out first":
A truce was negotiated with the Taliban that allowed for us to pull our troops out by a specified date without incurring Taliban fire during the process. We were also allowed to evacuate the Afghanis we had commitments to, again peacefully, no Taliban fire. And the troops were pulled out without taking any Taliban fire by that date.
There were no Taliban related U.S. casualties incurred while undertaking a complex and militarily vulnerable pullout. Are you saying or implying that if the U.S. had broken this agreement with the Taliban and inserted thousands of fresh troops into the country that we could have pulled them out at a later date- without a ceasefire in place- without our troops and transport aircraft taking heavy enemy fire during this withdrawal?
At some point during a troop withdrawal there is vulnerability to enemy fire. Transport planes are vulnerable. The last troops out are vulnerable. Imagine how it would have gone without an arranged truce in place.
"Left billions of perfectly good military hardware behind":
You are making this up or repeating what someone else made up. The dollar amount isn't known nor is the amount that was still "perfectly good" known. It is reasoned that most of the sophisticated hardware, such as helicopters, was rendered inoperable. It is known, not suspected, known, that there haven't been many sightings of Taliban dudes flying around in American helicopters. In actuality, in fact, under the circumstances, it was cheaper to leave most the stuff that was left than to transport it back. In Taliban hands, most of what was left was, is, or soon will be, inoperable junk.
As for the [unasked here] question of many Afghanis should have been evacuated. There is no answer. There is no number. Some, most, all? How many? How? Where? And why just them? Half the globe should be evacuated to someplace better.
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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 11:23:30 GMT -5
Was there a better outcome for Afghanistan and its people available. Probably. What and how? Who the hell knows? We didn't.
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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 11:49:08 GMT -5
As for the 7% inflation, under what president would there not have been Covid-related supply bottlenecks? Would there have been more computer chips and other Chinese goods (all in inflation causing short supply) showing up on our shores if Trump were president rather than Biden?
I suppose you could argue that Trump's sophisticated diplomatic skills ( CHINESE FLU ) would have greased the supply chain. You can argue anything. But, it is usually the case that inflation, the kind that affects wide swaths of the world, has complex causes that usually can't be reduced to this president or that.
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Post by t-bob on Feb 5, 2022 12:03:05 GMT -5
We were talking about swearing and "concerns pullouts" and sex. OOPS I guess we were talking about war. That makes more sense  |
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 5, 2022 14:16:53 GMT -5
Epaul, you are trying to use logic to convince the delusional. I’m reminded of the biblical reference, something about casting pearls before swine. Good luck with that.
Mike
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 14:34:45 GMT -5
Epaul, you are trying to use logic to convince the delusional. I’m reminded of the biblical reference, something about casting pearls before swine. Good luck with that. Mike So might the "moderators" here agree that old Mikey here should be swore at for such idiotic insults? Or maybe James, the apparent Proboards official censor of all things disinformation might be moved to remove such disinformation? Probably not. That would take some courage. |
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Post by kbcolorado on Feb 5, 2022 15:51:51 GMT -5
The claim seems pretty reliable here that Joe Biden had plenty of intel on how much danger our Afghan allies would be in, particularly interpreters and Afghan women that cooperated with the military, if we left them high and dry. He had the power to get them out of the country but chose not too. Interesting for a guy that ran on the empathy platform. open.spotify.com/episode/0XnVvUtJlw877q2sRnVTW0 |
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Post by epaul on Feb 5, 2022 17:47:40 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 19:37:48 GMT -5
Concerning the Afghanistan pullout... If the complete pullout of American forces was the objective, then how was the pullout an abject failure? 11 soldiers were killed by a suicide bomb (Isis, not Taliban). 0 would be ideal, but given all that could have gone wrong during this military withdrawal, 11 seems like a low figure. Yes, every death is a tragedy, and if 11 casualties reckons a complex military pullout from an unstable dangerous situation an abject failure, ok, pummel me and I'll accept it. And, while I have no idea how accurate any of these figures are, the UN reckons that 124,000 Afghanistan refugees were airlifted out of Afghanistan under the watch of the U.S. military while they were conducting the extremely complex fraught with danger pullout from Afghanistan. Again, I could be wrong. Maybe 124,000 is a ridiculously low number and I deserve pummeling for my ignorance. But it strikes me as a pretty impressive number to evacuate under such harrowing conditions and it speaks both to the capability of the American forces and the needed cooperation that was negotiated for with the Taliban. Again, a complete military pullout was the objective and that is how the action should be judged, and I think a fair analysis is, while it was wooly, it certainly could have gone a whole lot worse. A good outcome was not available. A disastrous one (for us) was avoided. Congress (not just us irrational asshole Trump lovers) seems to disagree with you profoundly as this recently released paper shows. F'd Up From The Word GoNote how many Americans were left behind. |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 20:08:52 GMT -5
Ok, the plan to publicly announce a pullout date of all our military troops was Trump's plan. No it wasn't. Trump NEVER announced a date, mostly because that would be STUPID. And there were still 2500 troops in Bagram. Mostly because the most obvious way to bug out of Afghanistan would have been through BAGRAM, where the people with guns (lots of guns including C-RAMs - you can look it up), airplanes, helicopters, etc. were. Not an impossible to defend public airport in Kabul. Duh. And an American had not been killed in Afghanistan for the last 18 months of Trump. He owned the Taliban. And at the point of the Biden disaster, Trump had been out of office for 8 months. There's simply no way to blame Trump. |
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Post by Moderators on Feb 5, 2022 20:21:15 GMT -5
Epaul, you are trying to use logic to convince the delusional. I’m reminded of the biblical reference, something about casting pearls before swine. Good luck with that. Mike So might the "moderators" here agree that old Mikey here should be swore at for such idiotic insults? Or maybe James, the apparent Proboards official censor of all things disinformation might be moved to remove such disinformation? Probably not. That would take some courage.
No one should be swore at, but you have a point, Peter.
We'd like this political discourse, as inflammatory as it tends to be, not to lead into personal insults, attacks, or mockery. We have asked everyone time and again to keep it civil, NOT to make it personal, and have some mutual respect for each other's opinions and ideas—no matter how irritating or ridiculous you find them. Didn't any of you ever take civics classes or participate on the school debating team? (Not you youngsters, but you older peeps.) Try to follow the rules of civilized debate, if you can remember them. If you can't, do an Internet search and refresh your memories.
Our lives are turbulent and crazy enough right now. We don't need to be pouring fuel on the fire. Quit poking each other.
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Post by Cosmic Wonder on Feb 5, 2022 20:52:33 GMT -5
To the moderators.  Mike |
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Post by Russell Letson on Feb 5, 2022 20:53:45 GMT -5
Trump NEVER announced a date, mostly because that would be STUPID. From the Trump Administration-negotiated withdrawal agreement, dated 2/29/20: The United States is committed to withdraw from Afghanistan all military forces of the United States, its allies,and Coalition partners, including all non-diplomatic civilian personnel,private security contractors, trainers, advisors, and supporting services personnel within fourteen (14) monthsfollowing announcement of this agreement. . . . www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdfBy January 2021, the Trump Administration had withdrawn all but 2500 US forces. Detailed timelines of events from the signing onward are here: www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020%E2%80%932021) |
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 5, 2022 21:04:55 GMT -5
for biden it was fait accompli, tho I think he did negotiate an extension of the deadline for a few months.
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Post by jdd2 on Feb 5, 2022 21:09:47 GMT -5
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 22:31:59 GMT -5
Trump NEVER announced a date, mostly because that would be STUPID. From the Trump Administration-negotiated withdrawal agreement, dated 2/29/20: The United States is committed to withdraw from Afghanistan all military forces of the United States, its allies,and Coalition partners, including all non-diplomatic civilian personnel,private security contractors, trainers, advisors, and supporting services personnel within fourteen (14) monthsfollowing announcement of this agreement. . . . www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdfBy January 2021, the Trump Administration had withdrawn all but 2500 US forces. Detailed timelines of events from the signing onward are here: www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020%E2%80%932021)A couple notes. "Within fourteen (14) months" isn't an actual date, is it? And Trump left office 11 months after that quote. And Biden didn't start his debacle until 19 months after that quote and after he'd basically dismantled everything Trump did. Are you really serious that this is proof of anything other than a senile incompetent idiot's fever dream? |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 22:39:49 GMT -5
for biden it was fait accompli, tho I think he did negotiate an extension of the deadline for a few months. What kind of idiot negotiates with a rag tag band of terrorists? An idiot without a spine apparently. |
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Post by aquaduct on Feb 5, 2022 22:45:36 GMT -5
"Left billions of perfectly good military hardware behind": You are making this up or repeating what someone else made up. The dollar amount isn't known nor is the amount that was still "perfectly good" known. It is reasoned that most of the sophisticated hardware, such as helicopters, was rendered inoperable. It is known, not suspected, known, that there haven't been many sightings of Taliban dudes flying around in American helicopters. In actuality, in fact, under the circumstances, it was cheaper to leave most the stuff that was left than to transport it back. In Taliban hands, most of what was left was, is, or soon will be, inoperable junk. As for the [unasked here] question of many Afghanis should have been evacuated. There is no answer. There is no number. Some, most, all? How many? How? Where? And why just them? Half the globe should be evacuated to someplace better. Huh? Apparently you didn't look too hard, did you? Fortune |
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