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Post by jdd2 on Oct 2, 2022 7:24:23 GMT -5
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Post by Marty on Oct 2, 2022 9:20:06 GMT -5
Being that I repair things I've found to use the right glue for the job and some things should not be glued.
Glue goes back a awful long way. Ancient men used tree sap or tar heated and used to secure bindings of leather holding wood and stone together. That's really not too bad a way to do that job, they didn't have cable ties and duct tape.
Probably the most common and widely used glues over the centuries is different collagen glues, hide glues. I use more of that than any other type but I still have quite a few choices in my glue box. For a while I was into fish glue but its lack of shelf life made me quit using it. Hide glues being organic are susceptible to bacteria that eat it and leave behind a whitish powder, bacteria poop.
For a while superglue (cyro) messed up the idea of using the proper glue for the job due to people thinking it would glue anything to anything, nope. It was way too thin to work on porous surfaces without pretreating both surfaces first and even then it had poor shear strength. Now they put guitars together with it.
Maybe more later, must get dressed to go out.
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Post by TKennedy on Oct 2, 2022 9:33:53 GMT -5
What I like about hide glue is that after you clean up the squeeze out you can eat it as a snack.
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Post by gbacklin on Oct 2, 2022 10:51:18 GMT -5
If I have a piece of the instrument chip or break off, I use titebond, for the assembly of the instrument it’s 100% hide glue.
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Oct 2, 2022 11:18:37 GMT -5
Reading through the comments, I notice there’s no mention of the venerable “rubbed” joint where two edges are carefully planed to match and then rubbed together to squeeze out all the excess glue. The glued panel is then stood on edge and allowed to dry without clamping. I’ve made joints this way and found the joints are truly stronger than the wood and nearly invisible when the surface has been properly scraped. On edit. |
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Post by Cornflake on Oct 2, 2022 11:37:11 GMT -5
How much wood would wood glue glue if wood glue would glue wood?
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Post by gbacklin on Oct 2, 2022 12:01:26 GMT -5
Reading through the comments, I notice there’s no mention of the venerable “rubbed” joint where two edges are carefully planed to match and then rubbed together to squeeze out all the excess glue. The glued panel is then stood on edge and allowed to dry without clamping. I’ve made joints this way and found the joints are truly stronger than the wood and nearly invisible when the surface has been properly scraped. On edit. That is how I join the plates of the violin/viola. Plane the edges to square and smooth, then join by spreading a generous amount of hide glue, then rubbing the edges together till they actually bind or stick, then compressing with the wood parallel to your chest with your hands for around 30 seconds and let set in front of a warm light for several hours.   |
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Oct 2, 2022 12:05:39 GMT -5
That is how I join the plates of the violin/viola. Plane the edges to square and smooth, then join by spreading a generous amount of hide glue, then rubbing the edges together till they actually bind or stick, then compressing with the wood parallel to your chest with your hands for around 30 seconds and let set in front of a warm light for several hours. I was thinking of you when I posted. I assumed that was the technique you used. Nice photos. |
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Post by gbacklin on Oct 2, 2022 12:07:40 GMT -5
That is how I join the plates of the violin/viola. Plane the edges to square and smooth, then join by spreading a generous amount of hide glue, then rubbing the edges together till they actually bind or stick, then compressing with the wood parallel to your chest with your hands for around 30 seconds and let set in front of a warm light for several hours. I was thinking of you when I posted. I assumed that was the technique you used. Nice photos. Thank you. It was an absolute no no at school to even think of clamping the glued joint  |
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Post by Marty on Oct 2, 2022 13:43:46 GMT -5
If I have a piece of the instrument chip or break off, I use titebond, for the assembly of the instrument it’s 100% hide glue. And Hot hide glue. If I have to reglue the bridge on a vintage instrument I would use hot hide glue and mix and heat just enough for that job unless I have a few more things to do that could use it. Non vintage bridges will get brown titebond. Either glues will fail if the bridge is not fitted properly as they are not gap filling types. Gap filling glues should not be used in areas that might need to be taken apart or tone areas like the top or back. Hot hide glue dries very hard but it doesn't have a high shear strength, decent but not high. It is susceptible to heat and high humidity making joints under tension a problem. Gluing side and back joints or dovetails is not a problem but bridges are. It's the best choice for joints that may need to be taken apart. This makes it excellent for violin building. I use a lot of cold hide glue for cracks and cleats. This is low tension work and cold hide holds up just fine. I really like fish glue for this too but the shelf life sucks and you end up tossing a half bottle out because you can't trust it, even if the bulk of it is kept in the fridge. I learned that lesson the hard way. In my glue box I'll keep titebond both yellow and brown, epoxy both fast and slow setting, polyurethane aka Gorilla glue, contact cement, acetate glue for bindings and rubber cement. I also use Bondic for a few things and my superglue and all the doodads that go with it are in a tray I can move over to the bench when needed. |
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Tamarack
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Post by Tamarack on Oct 2, 2022 19:30:28 GMT -5
Is the "brown titebond" the waterproof Titebond III? Is is waterproof but not heatproof for situations where you need to remove a bridge? I am currently using it to make a reproduction of a 1928-vintage screen/storm door that faces west to sun and storms. I previous used it for a non-typical use of gluing broken bricks together while replacing bricks and tuckpointing around the front porch. (It only had to hold the brick together until the mortar set)
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Post by millring on Oct 2, 2022 19:40:01 GMT -5
Why would you hide glue? Wouldn't that make it harder to use it when you need it?
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Post by millring on Oct 2, 2022 19:41:48 GMT -5
That is how I join the plates of the violin/viola. Plane the edges to square and smooth, then join by spreading a generous amount of hide glue, then rubbing the edges together till they actually bind or stick [/quote] Except that when they actually, finally DO stick....they're 1/16" off from being where you wanted them joined. |
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Post by TKennedy on Oct 2, 2022 19:45:49 GMT -5
On a guitar top you want them offset a little bit so you can find the centerline after sanded out on the thickness sander..
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Post by amanajoe on Oct 2, 2022 21:20:49 GMT -5
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Post by Marty on Oct 2, 2022 22:08:07 GMT -5
What I like about hide glue is that after you clean up the squeeze out you can eat it as a snack. Edible yes being it's pretty much jello but not real high on the flavor factor. |
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Post by Marty on Oct 2, 2022 22:12:13 GMT -5
Is the "brown titebond" the waterproof Titebond III? Is is waterproof but not heatproof for situations where you need to remove a bridge? I am currently using it to make a reproduction of a 1928-vintage screen/storm door that faces west to sun and storms. I previous used it for a non-typical use of gluing broken bricks together while replacing bricks and tuckpointing around the front porch. (It only had to hold the brick together until the mortar set) Titebond II I think but yes it will release with heat. The brown makes for a cleaner glue line on dark wood. |
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Post by gbacklin on Oct 3, 2022 14:08:20 GMT -5
...Except that when they actually, finally DO stick....they're 1/16" off from being where you wanted them joined. That's the beauty of it. It doesn't have to be exact, and it adds the human touch to it. As you can see from the photo, the tone wood is quite bit larger than the instrument itself, if it is off a bit, no worries. The only concern is that the centerline lines up with the center of the form itself.   |
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