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Post by jdd2 on Jan 9, 2023 2:49:46 GMT -5
some headlines out to that effect, epaul?
maybe a new country song or two about this?
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Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2023 13:24:13 GMT -5
I haven't heard anything one way or another. I will check with my renter sometime. I don't think it was ever a big deal or that much will change one way or another, but it can't hurt.
As I understand it, (and I don't understand it) the repair issue was never about general traditional repair (engine, transmission, hydraulics, nuts and bolts) and these repairs were never constrained. Rather it was about protecting the intellectual rights and maintaining control of the computer systems that have come to dominate the tractor/implement interface. John Deere didn't want to give out the computer codes for their proprietary systems, which meant that only John Deere service personnel could repair them.
I don't know how many farmers are up to troubleshooting programming snafus, but the world is changing and quite a few now probably are, but those that are (or have hired those that are) want the right to fix their computer stuff without going through JD. (my renter, the son that farms with my best friend since 1st grade second cousin, is pretty adept with the computer tech that is now at the center of agriculture)
On JD's part, like Apple, they want to keep their codes and programs of their proprietary programs under their control, for both profit and harmonious performance. And it does both. It gives them nice market control: you buy a JD tractor, you also want to buy a JD planter as the computer shit that goes on between them will work with fewer bugs than if you buy a planter from another manufacturer whose computer system may not mesh as well as JD's does. Like Apple, JD's policy of code-control produced both company profit and stuff that worked well and harmoniously together. Good and bad.
Anyway, the issue was not about wrenches, it was about coding. Which is involved with darn near everything on a tractor nowadays. The darn things drive themselves and tell you what going on from tip to toe while they are doing it.
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Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2023 13:39:25 GMT -5
(I reserve the right to change everything I just said pending further information. I'm out of farming and into fish. Ask me about the breeding behavior of Convict cichlids.)
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Post by epaul on Jan 9, 2023 13:47:28 GMT -5
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Jan 9, 2023 15:02:23 GMT -5
I'm out of farming and into fish. You probably need this.  Or this. It seems to be all that’s left of Fishing Facts magazine.  |
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Post by Village Idiot on Jan 9, 2023 19:24:02 GMT -5
The farmers I know look at this situation as replacing a computer chip, which anyone could do as easily as replacing a fuse. No computer knowledge needed.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2023 20:15:48 GMT -5
The farmers I know look at this situation as replacing a computer chip, which anyone could do as easily as replacing a fuse. No computer knowledge needed. I've got a lot of experience in automotive controls and a bit of it in off-road (which is what things like farm vehicles are classified as for regulatory purposes) and I can assure you, that's the mother of all exagerations and not true at all. Control systems are more than computer chips and I think the farm vehicle control systems are much more complicated than the one in your Jeep or car. |
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Post by Village Idiot on Jan 9, 2023 21:27:07 GMT -5
It's the prevailing thought among many (why can't they just give us the manual) so I appreciate knowing this. It makes sense. That being said, I wish people like John Deere would make take more time to explain that to their many clients who aren't' understanding it that way.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2023 22:00:00 GMT -5
It's the prevailing thought among many (why can't they just give us the manual) so I appreciate knowing this. It makes sense. That being said, I wish people like John Deere would make take more time to explain that their many clients who aren't' understanding it that way. Again, I'm not sure about farm equipment but only automotive requirements, but automobiles, at least for the powertrain, HAVE to publish diagnostic info by EPA mandate. They also have to release to the general public a certain amount of diagnostic info so that, for instance, anybody can make and sell a "scan tool" (one of those little handheld things that lets the guy at Pep Boys plug into a standardized plug under the dash and get "codes" that will give strong hints as to what's wrong with the engine. i.e.- P1102 is an open in the exhaust gas sensor). Dealerships can have really stepped up computers for diagnostic purposes, but everyone can get the cheap stuff. That's because "right to repair" has always been standard in automotive. A bazzilion shade tree mechanics including myself can testify to that. Farm equipment isn't covered by the EPA the same way and because it's off road, it's likely a lot more complex. For instance, when I was with Volvo we were developing completely driverless things like tractors that could til an entire field by satellite. Of course, you don't have to deal with pedestrians when you're doing that. So everything's different in off road. I've loosely followed the Deere story and they do have a somewhat reasonable point. But overall, I'm glad it's now settled. |
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Post by Marshall on Jan 9, 2023 22:12:39 GMT -5
Again, I'm not sure about farm equipment but only automotive requirements, but automobiles, at least for the powertrain, HAVE to publish diagnostic info by EPA mandate.  |
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2023 22:26:00 GMT -5
Again, I'm not sure about farm equipment but only automotive requirements, but automobiles, at least for the powertrain, HAVE to publish diagnostic info by EPA mandate. Yep. Automotive learned not to argue too loudly with the Federal Waffen SS back in 1972. |
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 9, 2023 23:05:49 GMT -5
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Post by theevan on Jan 10, 2023 5:36:11 GMT -5
This has been a constant issue with my Italian-made manlift. There is a ridiculous number of sensors in the thing and if the computer doesn't like one bitty little thing it's dead in the water.
At first all I could do was hook up a modem to the thing, call Italy and an engineer would fiddle with the parameters until the conflict was ostensibly resolved. Until it went kooky again.then I'd have to tow it 5 hours to Houston and leave it there until they could get it figured out.
I just picked it up a few weeks ago after the US distributor in Houston had it for nearly a year. Got it off the trailer and it was flashing codes right and left. I'm pissed.
I was sharing my woes with John who bought our farm and he said it's an issue with Deere machinery. Has a pal that bought a @$500k combine that's dead more than alive. Only the Deere guys can mess with it. They've been out time and again and can't resolve the issues. It sits doing nothing while he pays on it.
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Post by aquaduct on Jan 10, 2023 10:06:46 GMT -5
This has been a constant issue with my Italian-made manlift. There is a ridiculous number of sensors in the thing and if the computer doesn't like one bitty little thing it's dead in the water. At first all I could do was hook up a modem to the thing, call Italy and an engineer would fiddle with the parameters until the conflict was ostensibly resolved. Until it went kooky again.then I'd have to tow it 5 hours to Houston and leave it there until they could get it figured out. I just picked it up a few weeks ago after the US distributor in Houston had it for nearly a year. Got it off the trailer and it was flashing codes right and left. I'm pissed. I was sharing my woes with John who bought our farm and he said it's an issue with Deere machinery. Has a pal that bought a @$500k combine that's dead more than alive. Only the Deere guys can mess with it. They've been out time and again and can't resolve the issues. It sits doing nothing while he pays on it. Since I've scored an initial job interview tomorrow, allow me to exercise my full geekdom for a moment as practice. Another problem that much of industry is experiencing is in the realm of "robustness", a simple but mostly overlooked part of the quality discipline that was taught to me 30 years ago but has gone virtually silent ever since. The reason for that is that it's blindingly simple but difficult to measure. What it means is designing things so they are likely not to fail inopportunely (everything eventually fails. The trick is to make sure it doesn't do it at a really bad time). So, for instance, I'm sure Marty and Terry have preferred methods of guitar building and repair (like using certain glues) that try to assure that when something does eventually go wrong, it's relatively easy to fix. That's robustness. Robustness in a product decreases the more stuff is added to the design as that provides more potential failure points that then have to be accounted for adding yet another layer of complication. Simply stated, robustness is the $5 expression of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) philosophy. It's why the good old Ford Coyote 5.0L V8 remains as 40% of engines sold in light trucks despite all the Ecoboost options that get better fuel economy. Twin turbos to get better gas mileage and still offer the power necessary only add to the complexity of both engine operating and engine fixing (by taking up precious space under the hood). Anyways, the engine controls I learned in the traditional automotive industry were built with an eye toward robustness. Simple ladder logic keeping the cycle time for the whole program as small as possible (less than about 52 milliseconds tops), and just repeating until the wheels fall off. They also made what's called OBD-II internal engine diagnostics possible in the mid-90s where you would compare control parameters to ascertain impending engine system failure. Any gasoline vehicle later than 1996 has this. That's why you can go to Pep Boys and they'll plug in a scanner and tell you your engine codes so you can fix it or somebody else can. Where it gets interesting for me is that since I've left Detroit and the automotive industry largely behind, I've gotten into (well, tried to anyways) industrial controls known generically as PLCs (Programmable Logic Controls). The Allen Bradley company (ABI- now a part of Rockwell) invented the PLC on New Years day in 1970. Turns out PLCs are programmed exactly the same way as traditional engine controls. Ladder logic and 52 millisecond cycle cap. I suspect but don't know for sure that that's where the automotive guys got the idea of engine controls, from thier factories. The more interesting thing to me is the number of attempts in recent years to try to find better ways of doing PLCs that have never gained traction due to the robustness and sheer market dominance of ABI. So how does all this relate to Deere? Well Deere is the only major equipment manufacturer not tied to a legacy automotive company. They're probably doing the Tesla thing and basing their controls on computer structures which are infinitely more complex and infinitely less robust. Tesla is the only automaker to have every single car they've built recalled at some point or another. Explains a lot to this old bean. And how does this relate to my interview tomorrow? It's for a local plant in an international conglomerate with heavy ties to automotive. One of the things I did at my last job was volunteer to try putting automotive style diagnostics into their PLCs and I got as far as proof of concept before the reorganization booted me. And one of the new job requirements is working to improve robustness of machine controls. I think that's about line 6 on my resume. |
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Post by howard lee on Jan 12, 2023 7:50:02 GMT -5
Q: What did the plow say to the tractor?
A: Come a little closer, John Deere.
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Dub
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Post by Dub on Jan 12, 2023 12:42:10 GMT -5
Since I've scored an initial job interview tomorrow, allow me to exercise my full geekdom for a moment as practice. I loved reading that. An excellent essay on what should be obvious but seems to have been lost. Good luck with your interview, Peter. They’d be lucky to have you. |
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