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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 0:10:42 GMT -5
I’m confused by this discussion. Personally I think most songs and most stories need to be mostly in first person. Maybe not the exact experience of the author, but some character in the story needs to speak his/her mind for it to have authenticity.
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Post by John B on Aug 28, 2023 6:58:49 GMT -5
I’m confused by this discussion. Personally I think most songs and most stories need to be mostly in first person. Maybe not the exact experience of the author, but some character in the story needs to speak his/her mind for it to have authenticity. My name is Eleanor I pick up the rice in a church where a wedding has been An outside observer might say I live in a dream I wait at a window Wearing a face that I keep in a jar by the door I don't know who it's for Now I'm a preacher I'm writing the words to a sermon most likely no one will hear No one comes near Look at me working I'm darning my socks, alone What do I care?
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Post by Cornflake on Aug 28, 2023 7:43:25 GMT -5
I've followed this with interest. I don't know anything but my answer is a lawyerly "it depends." It depends on what you're trying to do.
There is usually more distance from the subject when you write in the third person. That may be good or bad, depending on your intent. I wrote one in which the world keeps ending, over and over, and then coming back. The narrator had to be omniscient because no individual narrator could survive all the cataclysms.
I've written humorous songs in which the narrator is a brontosaurus, a dog, a religious bigot or a whiny drunk in a bar. Writing about such people and animals in the third person wouldn't have been as funny as writing from their point of view. I wrote one serious song in which the narrator was Jesus, observing wistfully how every time he came back to earth we killed him. In those instances, no one thought I was writing autobiography. But I once ran into the problem of writing a fictitious song about a woman other than my wife. That made my wife unhappy. I junked the song. I also once had an imaginary narrator spouting some sentiments that some people found offensive. I junked that one too.
In fiction, a first-person narrative can run into problems when the writer wants to introduce facts or events that the narrator couldn't know about. I've enjoyed Diana Gabaldon's books, written in the first person by a woman, but the first-person approach forces the author into some contortions. Her narrator gets laid by the King of France. The narrator's lover becomes a general in the American Revolution. These things get us into the thick of the action but I can't quite suspend my disbelief.
Interesting question.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 9:25:00 GMT -5
Novels are much more involved. A song is a snippet; a moment in time. But even in a 3rd person novel, the perspective quite often shifts between different character's first-person-mental-monologs, and musings. True 3rd person is more like a non-fiction narrative. And those usually bore me. Too cut and dried. Too removed.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 9:27:41 GMT -5
Even in Elenore Rigby, we're getting the first-person interpretation of events Paul McCartney is observing. Elenore and Father Makenzie might think Paul is off his rocker.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 9:29:13 GMT -5
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Post by John B on Aug 28, 2023 9:41:03 GMT -5
Even in Elenore Rigby, we're getting the first-person interpretation of events Paul McCartney is observing. Elenore and Father Makenzie might think Paul is off his rocker. Smarter people than me can chime in, but I disagree. If the narrator said, "I saw Elsinore Rugby pick up the rice" it would be first person. As it is, "Elvis Ragby picks up the rice" is third person.
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Post by epaul on Aug 28, 2023 9:54:08 GMT -5
Writers write. Analyzers analyze.
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 28, 2023 10:18:44 GMT -5
You might want to talk to my wife about that.
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Post by John B on Aug 28, 2023 10:28:08 GMT -5
I dunno, my analyst doesn't write anything down. She says it's to protect me in the event her files are stolen.
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Post by aquaduct on Aug 28, 2023 11:30:22 GMT -5
If I wrote in the first person, it would make it easier for the cops to find and arrest me. I'd stick with the 3rd person. Or better yet, the 16th or 17th person.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 14:39:31 GMT -5
Even in Elenore Rigby, we're getting the first-person interpretation of events Paul McCartney is observing. Elenore and Father Makenzie might think Paul is off his rocker. Smarter people than me can chime in, but I disagree. If the narrator said, "I saw Elsinore Rugby pick up the rice" it would be first person. As it is, "Elvis Ragby picks up the rice" is third person. Sure, sure. But McCartney is drawing conclusions about the state of mind of people whose actions he is observing. Of course it is “3rd person” in the literal, but it is the observer that is stitching it together and drawing comparisons and conclusions Fake News.
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 28, 2023 15:51:05 GMT -5
Point of view is literally Lit 101 (or whatever the course number might be) in the traditional curriculum, often with works chosen specifically to illustrate the various possibilities and their effects (irony, unreliable narrator, etc.). Thus Joyce's "Araby," Flannery O'Connor's "A Good Man Is Hard to Find," or Faulkner's "Barn Burning."
FWIW, the only internal state reported in "Eleanor Rigby" is "Lives in a dream," which can be read as a comment or conclusion on the part of the narrator rather than a report of her mental condition. "Who is it for?" and "What does he care?" are also from the narrator (though the latter might actually represent Father M's attitude). The rest of the song consists of descriptions, couched in emotive language that is reinforced by the musical setting.
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Post by John B on Aug 28, 2023 15:56:06 GMT -5
Smarter people than me can chime in, but I disagree. If the narrator said, "I saw Elsinore Rugby pick up the rice" it would be first person. As it is, "Elvis Ragby picks up the rice" is third person. Sure, sure. But McCartney is drawing conclusions about the state of mind of people whose actions he is observing. Of course it is “3rd person” in the literal, but it is the observer that is stitching it together and drawing comparisons and conclusions Fake News. Bullshit on the Fake News. The whole question is about the literal use of 1st vs. 3rd person. You're the one who's redefining what 1st and 3rd person is.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 19:38:54 GMT -5
You’re misinterpreted my “Fake News.” I was inferring that McCartney’s take on these people might not be the whole story.
Of course 3rd person is a real thing. I’m pointing out (poorly) that there’s a difference within the realm of 3rd person narrative where an author might interject (dare I say?) “bias” into his/her narrative. Whereas other narratives, (biographies?) the author strives to be more invisible.
You, of all people, should understand bias.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 19:43:01 GMT -5
I’ll be quiet now.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 28, 2023 19:49:54 GMT -5
No I won’t
In novels many times the author in 3rd person narrative is able to slip in and out of various characters 1st person heads and let them speak for themselves. Then back into the narrative mode to let the reader know things that none of the characters know. - A great technique in telling a complex story.
A song, on the other hand is a VERY short story. So it’s best to be careful and stick to one approach to one get’s the point across.
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Post by John B on Aug 29, 2023 9:44:08 GMT -5
You’re misinterpreted my “Fake News.” I was inferring that McCartney’s take on these people might not be the whole story. Of course 3rd person is a real thing. I’m pointing out (poorly) that there’s a difference within the realm of 3rd person narrative where an author might interject (dare I say?) “bias” into his/her narrative. Whereas other narratives, (biographies?) the author strives to be more invisible. You, of all people, should understand bias. Thanks, I get it now. I did misunderstand your final comment.
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Post by John B on Aug 29, 2023 9:54:01 GMT -5
You, of all people, should understand bias. I was going to make a joke about this, but it would have looked something like this: I have no idea what you’re talking about!But I could only figure out how to make the letters lean to the right, and that seemed wrong. Maybe someone can suggest a Lefty font for me to use.
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Post by Marshall on Aug 29, 2023 17:07:48 GMT -5
Oops again.
For some reason I had it in my mind that Millring was calling me out on “fake news”.
I really should just shut up.
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