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Post by millring on Aug 27, 2023 10:00:29 GMT -5
As a reader or writer of songs, letters, or stories, help me think through the relative strengths and weaknesses of writing in the first or third person.
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Aug 27, 2023 11:35:49 GMT -5
I think you are asking the wrong question.
If you're writing a song to express your inner feelings so the listener begins to understand you, it should be first person. Then as soon as it's completed to your satisfaction, record it if you must but quickly destroy any record of having done so, and forget it.
If you're writing a song for people to hear and share, make sure it speaks to THEM. It needs to evoke some universal feeling even if that is only to cause them to dance.
The songs Dark as a Dungeon and You'll Never Leave Harlan Alive tell the same story and evoke many of the same responses. One is third-person, the other first-person.
Songs such as Mary Hamilton or Terrytown are effective in the first person. The song Omie Wise wouldn't be.
Some songs are written because they are "there" and the writer "has" to write them. Others are carefully thought out over a long period.
I think perhaps a good way to write a song might be to write it with the idea that you're writing it for someone else to sing. Imagine you're writing it to sell to James Taylor or Paul Simon.
I don’t think it’s possible to write a song that introduces a new concept. There aren’t any new literary concepts. It’s only possible to evoke a familiar idea or feeling in a way that the listener can identify with and that sticks with the listener for a little while.
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Post by Shannon on Aug 27, 2023 13:03:09 GMT -5
I think the biggest risk of writing in the first person is that your listener will assume the song is truly autobiographical. This can result in some tension if your listeners include your spouse or other family members.
The other big risk happens if the song actually is autobiographical. Are you okay with your listeners knowing certain things about you?
Off the top of my head, a majority of the truly powerful songs seem to be in first person.
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Aug 27, 2023 13:29:13 GMT -5
A song should never be autobiographical unless it's also autobiographical for everyone who wants to sing it. And why write a song that no one else would want to sing?
No general audience wants to know our deepest secrets. They might care about us… but not that much.
We don’t really care about our favorite songwriters either. They might be interesting people worth knowing something about but, unless they are personal friends, we don’t actually care about them. We might admire their work but that’s usually where it ends.
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Post by billhammond on Aug 27, 2023 14:31:30 GMT -5
A song should never be autobiographical unless it's also autobiographical for everyone who wants to sing it. And why write a song that no one else would want to sing? No general audience wants to know our deepest secrets. They might care about us… but not that much. We don’t really care about our favorite songwriters either. They might be interesting people worth knowing something about but, unless they are personal friends, we don’t actually care about them. We might admire their work but that’s usually where it ends. Of course, lots of songs with first-person lyrics are not autobiographical per se, but stories told, memories described-- think "Me and Bobby McGee" or "City of New Orleans," for instance.
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Dub
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I'm gettin' so the past is the only thing I can remember.
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Post by Dub on Aug 27, 2023 14:46:10 GMT -5
A song should never be autobiographical unless it's also autobiographical for everyone who wants to sing it. And why write a song that no one else would want to sing? No general audience wants to know our deepest secrets. They might care about us… but not that much. We don’t really care about our favorite songwriters either. They might be interesting people worth knowing something about but, unless they are personal friends, we don’t actually care about them. We might admire their work but that’s usually where it ends. Of course, lots of songs with first-person lyrics are not autobiographical per se, but stories told, memories described-- think "Me and Bobby McGee" or "City of New Orleans," for instance. Right, but "we" are all the "me" with Bobby McGee and we are all the train. Goodman expressed his love for trains, rail yards, hoboes, and that train especially. Something in that song is meaningful to us all even if it's just passing the paper bag.
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Post by RickW on Aug 27, 2023 15:10:03 GMT -5
I have never written a song in first person. I should try sometime, as it does tend to make it more personal. I disagree that it will necessarily make people assume it’s about yourself, I’d say that would involve how close the subject matter is. If you write a song where you’re talking about the babe on rural route 5, yeah, you might get a bit of spousal heat. But it would be an interesting exercise. To bring up one recently discussed, 16 tons. In many ways it makes that song more emotional.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Aug 27, 2023 15:55:13 GMT -5
As a 76 year old bald fat man, if I were to sing Ricky Nelson's "Teenage Idol" no one would think it was autobiographical.
"Some people call me a teenage idol, some people say they envy me..."
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Post by John B on Aug 27, 2023 16:17:09 GMT -5
You decided to omit the second person point of view. You made a good choice.
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Post by Rob Hanesworth on Aug 27, 2023 17:14:16 GMT -5
You decided to omit the second person point of view. You made a good choice. "You can't roller skate in a buffalo herd."
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Post by david on Aug 27, 2023 17:58:55 GMT -5
Here is a first-person, recent account that had me thinking of a song/lyric/poem. I was trying to capture the time when I just do not know the answer: when I have a question before me, I need to make a decision and respond, but I cannot pull quickly enough upon my experience to form an answer. It seems similar to that uncomfortable sensation we have all had when we walk in the dark and think we have reached the last step in the stairs:
I took a step that wasn't there No support for my weight to bear My thoughts confused and my balance gone Whose values now to right my song
Where is my answer, where is the sound No direction for my tumbledown, no time to think, just to react Take action or refuse to act
Maybe my best guess is right enough ... .
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Post by John B on Aug 27, 2023 18:38:14 GMT -5
Here is a first-person, recent account that had me thinking of a song/lyric/poem. I was trying to capture the time when I just do not know the answer: when I have a question before me, I need to make a decision and respond, but I cannot pull quickly enough upon my experience to form an answer. It seems similar to that uncomfortable sensation we have all had when we walk in the dark and think we have reached the last step in the stairs: I took a step that wasn't there No support for my weight to bear My thoughts confused and my balance gone Whose values now to right my song Where is my answer, where is the sound No direction for my tumbledown, no time to think, just to react Take action or refuse to act Maybe my best guess is right enough ... . A note on the fourth line: it could be interpreted upon hearing as, "Who's values now to write my song?"
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 27, 2023 20:01:12 GMT -5
First person doesn't automatically mean autobiographical, at least in fiction and verse. My go-to exemplar songwriter would be Randy Newman, starting with "Rednecks" and "Old Kentucky Home" and "Davey the Fat Boy." Writing in character is as old as Chaucer and Shakespeare.
Then there's Ira Gershwin's "Someone to Watch Over Me" (written for Gertdrude Lawrence)--"He may not be the man some folks think of as handsome." Or Lorenz Hart's "My Funny Valentine" (written for the female lead of Babes in Arms)--"Is your figure less than Greek?/Is your mouth a little weak?/When you open it to speak, are you smart?" (But then, Hart was gay, so this can easily be read as encoded.)
FWIW, I'd love to sing any of the five I've listed, if I had the chops--and in the case of the Newman material, if I didn't mind the risk of getting run out of the venue on a rail. And I have sung the obviously anxious-teenage-girl "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" in public. Maybe I'll dust it off for IJam. (What I've love to tackle is Newman's "Marie." I'd do it right after "I Can't Believe that You're in Love with Me.")
Addendum from the folk world: "Banks of the Ohio."
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Post by millring on Aug 27, 2023 20:03:57 GMT -5
Last year I wanted to convey a thought that I sensed that if I had written it in the first person would have made the readers miss the point of the story in the first place. Sensing that, I came up with the idea of writing it as a letter from someone else to me (honestly, I probably got the idea from Garrison Keillor's "Letter From Jim"). For me it really worked. I was taken out of the picture except as someone sharing this letter, so if anyone thought well of the writer, it wasn't me they thought well of -- it was the letter writer.
I know I didn't make that very clear. But I've often thought about the point of view from which a story is told and what a difference it can make in the telling and the receiving.
It seems that third person writing allows the writer to be omniscient -- to tell what anyone in the story is doing AND thinking. First person can tell you what anyone was saying, and I suppose a clever enough writer can simply use dialogue to manipulate the reader into a logical conclusion about the character without telling you up front how that character might be motivated.
But I wonder which is easier when writing dialogue (and I wonder how necessary it is to always include the "I said" and "He said" in every single exchange. Do you get confused if it's omitted?)
I have to admit that it seems to matter so little that I can't even tell you which person most of the books I've read are written in. Are the Michael Connolly novels written in first person? ...I can't even remember.
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Post by millring on Aug 27, 2023 20:06:07 GMT -5
I've love to tackle is Newman's "Marie." I LOVE playing that song and every time I do it breaks my heart just a little that I cannot manage the vocal range regardless of key.
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Post by RickW on Aug 27, 2023 20:25:34 GMT -5
It seems that third person writing allows the writer to be omniscient -- to tell what anyone in the story is doing AND thinking. First person can tell you what anyone was saying, and I suppose a clever enough writer can simply use dialogue to manipulate the reader into a logical conclusion about the character without telling you up front how that character might be motivated. But I wonder which is easier when writing dialogue (and I wonder how necessary it is to always include the "I said" and "He said" in every single exchange. Do you get confused if it's omitted? For the first part, it’s hard to do with straight dialogue. I get so heavily into “show, don’t tell,” that I got critiqued by my critique group for not getting the characters to reflect enough. Then this last time they gave me a hard time for doing it. Such are critique groups. As far as the dialogue tags, that is a constant, ongoing, raging debate in writing forums/courses/podcasts/books. But, you only want to put in enough to keep things clear. So if two people are talking, you can let a few lines run without reminding the reader who is talking. You will get people who tell you to make the characters so distinct in the way they talk and what they do that it’s obvious who it is. I dunno about that one, but to a certain extent, yes. The other thing is you can drop the he said/she said by putting a small action in. “What on earth were you thinking?” John could only shake his head in wonder. “You’ve made a mess of everything!” You will also get people who say to only use “said”, not “bellowed”, or “yelled”. “Said” is supposedly less intrusive, that we are trained to not notice it. I like to add a bit more oomph by using alternatives. You will also get people telling you not to use adverbs, “he said sheeplishly.” But, I dunno, lots of great writers do that as well. So, you want to make sure it’s clear who’s talking, and not get overly dramatic, while adding some punch. Easy.
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Post by Russell Letson on Aug 27, 2023 20:25:57 GMT -5
Third person comes in flavors, primarily omniscient and restricted, with both flavors having degrees. Tight or restricted third can even be camera-eye POV--only what an observer might be able to sense or perceive, with no direct reporting of internal processes. I get to watch viewpoint decisions being made all the time, since it's a matter C. fusses over in her work. (I can report that she sees second-person POV in fiction as an affectation. Her reaction is usually "Me? Nope.")
Omniscient viewpoint is a technical bear--and it demands a very strong narrative voice, which can have the effect of pulling the reader out of the story. Better, I suspect, is what Patrick O'Brian does: present each scene or sequence in some degree of third person (O'Brian gives access to thoughts and feelings and also allows his narrator to provide context), assigned to a particular character, and provide clear signals (including simple white-space dividers) to keep them distinct.
Another stray thought on Randy Newman and first person: unreliable narrator. See also James Joyce ("Araby") and Sherwood Anderson ("I'm a Fool").
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Post by david on Aug 27, 2023 20:26:33 GMT -5
Newman's "Marie" is a sweeet song. I had not heard it before. Thanks, John. I wish "Marie" rhymed with "Susan," so that I could sing it for my wife. The version that I heard on Youtube sounds much like a song created for a Broadway Musical.
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Post by RickW on Aug 27, 2023 20:32:12 GMT -5
One other thing to watch for when writing third person is head-hopping, where you’re in one person’s POV, and then the next paragraph or line, you’re in someone else’s. Best to have a scene break if changing POVs, but it can be done.
Lastly, a lot of good writing is instinctual, not by rules. You write what works for you, and if you’ve written and read enough, you know what works. Becca Syme wrote a wonderful book, Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? Which was all about how much you actually understand about story and writing just from having read and written a bunch.
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Post by millring on Aug 27, 2023 20:38:11 GMT -5
Newman's "Marie" is a sweeet song. I had not heard it before. Thanks, John. I wish "Marie" rhymed with "Susan," so that I could sing it for my wife. The version that I heard on Youtube sounds much like a song created for a Broadway Musical. Oddly enough, the first person I ever heard play it was Livingston Taylor when he was on Mountain Stage. And since back then I used to record every Mountain Stage and every Prairie Home Companion, I had a recording to listen to over and over. But it was before the internet and useful search engines and the like, and I wasn't til much later that I discovered who wrote it. My favorite version by far is Glen Campbell's from a very old recording.
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