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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 10:24:41 GMT -5
Post by John B on Oct 12, 2023 10:24:41 GMT -5
The Benjamin Wittes link I posted did not say "I'm not defending what Hamas is doing.....but" or "Israel is at fault". I re-read it. You're right and I am wrong. The nightly news and the local news is FULL of stories and interviews saying "I'm not defending what Hamas is doing.....but" Just like the link James provided. They want us to know that (according to them) Israel is at fault. So, yes, they are defending Hamas. Additionally, the news is making the story that Israel is at fault because its intelligence was caught by surprise. Every story has an anti-Israel slant in the name of "balance". Fixed it. Even with a slight modification your comment holds water. Many of my news sources (where I get my news, as sources sounds like I have some sort of inside track) are saying, "Israel may have behaved badly BUT what Hamas is doing is ungodly horrible." I haven't paid much attention to what people who have previously been highly critical of Israel's recent actions have to say now. I should probably check that out. Unfortunately my gut response to all if this is to hope this all goes away. Which it will not and cannot.
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Post by majorminor on Oct 12, 2023 11:01:09 GMT -5
"You're right and I am wrong." I've been there frequently. I have that on my business cards.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 12:58:46 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Oct 12, 2023 12:58:46 GMT -5
I have not heard any news story say that Israel was at fault for the Hamas sneak attack because its intelligence service was caught off guard. If any one here has heard that claim, please raise your hand. We will do a count.
I have heard that Israel and its intelligence service and its army and all kinds of everything else Israel was caught off guard by the Hamas sneak attack. That is a straight forward, reportable fact. (and pretty damn obvious)
But, I have not heard any news reporting say that being surprised and caught off guard meant Israel was to blame for the Hamas attack. I haven't even heard any news reports saying that being caught off guard meant Israel had to share the blame 50/50 with Hamas (don't help a good terrorist go bad?).
Now, I haven't been listening to FOX. And I haven't been reading Newsweek. Maybe they are blaming Israel for the attack. CBS, NBC, PBS, and the LA Times and NY Times have all said Hamas was responsible for the sneak attack. Not Israel and its intelligence service.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 13:05:45 GMT -5
Post by millring on Oct 12, 2023 13:05:45 GMT -5
Nope, I don't watch FOX or read Newsweek. Just plain ol' NBC nightly news explaining how, even though the NBC journalist/investigators could easily show you the footage of the Hamas training sites -- fake villages built for the express purpose of practicing for the invasion, and Hamas terrorists practicing parasailing for the invasion -- somehow Israel's intelligence didn't see it coming. The reasonable conclusion is that Israeli intelligence was to blame for not stopping the invasion.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 13:18:27 GMT -5
Post by james on Oct 12, 2023 13:18:27 GMT -5
There are various Israeli newspapers with different political leanings and with English language editions and websites. I have been having a look at their reporting and opinions and perspectives a bit. Quite interesting.
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Post by Russell Letson on Oct 12, 2023 13:42:33 GMT -5
I don't keep a log of who said what and when, but one of the earliest WFT comments I recall on cable news, right after the attacks began, amounted to "How did Israeli intelligence not see something this big coming?" Along with "How did Hamas manage to breach the border so thoroughly and wreak so much havoc before there was a military response?" In both cases, the underlying, implied question was "Who fucked up?"
I do not take this as blaming Israel for the attack--only as wondering about its state of preparedness. And while pretty much all the sources I've seen recognize that this situation has been fermenting since 1947 and that Palestinians have had a crappy deal of it, and that said crappy deal has fueled a lot of craziness, I have not seen any mainstream outlets express an "Israel had it coming" sentiment. (Fringey outfits, maybe, and some remarkably stupid campus lefties, of course.)
The terrifying fact is that if Hamas were a person, we would call him a psychopath. And that an entire well-organized movement can encourage murderous behavior on the part of young men (who seem to be the primary actors here). I keep thinking of the (theoretically) Islamist bandit gangs that terrorize swathes of Africa, and of the blood-feud culture that has made the Balkans a misery for decades. It is apparently not all that hard to create a self-sustaining group psychosis.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 14:12:07 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Oct 12, 2023 14:12:07 GMT -5
Did the media blame us for Pearl Harbor? No. They blamed Japan.
In the aftermath, protocols and intelligence were examined and much second guessing and self-examination occurred. (how the hell did this happen) And changes occured.
Did the media blame us for 9/11? No, they blamed Al Qaeda/Arab terrorists.
In the aftermath, protocols and intelligence were examined and much second guessing and self-examination occurred. (how the hell did this happen) And changes occured.
Did the media blame Israel for the Hamas attack? No. They blamed Hamas for the Hamas attack.
In the aftermath, protocols and intelligence are being examined and much second guessing and self-examination is occurring. (how the hell did this happen). And changes will occur.
Asking "How the hell did this happen" after it happened is not remotely in the same universe as "the news is making the story that Israel is at fault because its intelligence was caught by surprise. Every story has an anti-Israel slant in the name of "balance".
Not in the same universe.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 14:19:43 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Oct 12, 2023 14:19:43 GMT -5
"The news is making the story that Israel is at fault..."
"Every story has an anti-Israel slant ..."
Wow.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 14:28:09 GMT -5
Post by Marshall on Oct 12, 2023 14:28:09 GMT -5
Nope, I don't watch FOX or read Newsweek. Just plain ol' NBC nightly news explaining how, even though the NBC journalist/investigators could easily show you the footage of the Hamas training sites -- fake villages built for the express purpose of practicing for the invasion, and Hamas terrorists practicing parasailing for the invasion -- somehow Israel's intelligence didn't see it coming. The reasonable conclusion is that Israeli intelligence was to blame for not stopping the invasion. Well, if they'd only watch NBC News they woulda known.
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Post by majorminor on Oct 12, 2023 14:57:58 GMT -5
One thing I found interesting was the seeming lack of armed civilians at that fringe border area where the attack occurred. I just assumed in that culture and that place there would be a rifle leaning in every corner of the house. Looks like there has been an emergency law easing restriction on personal ownership of firearms.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 15:46:22 GMT -5
Post by Cornflake on Oct 12, 2023 15:46:22 GMT -5
"One thing I found interesting was the seeming lack of armed civilians at that fringe border area where the attack occurred. I just assumed in that culture and that place there would be a rifle leaning in every corner of the house."
I had the same thought, Steve. Years ago, at least, Israel had a highly armed populace. That was primarily due to military reservists wanting to be ready for action at all times.
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Israel
Oct 12, 2023 15:55:16 GMT -5
Post by millring on Oct 12, 2023 15:55:16 GMT -5
Nope, I don't watch FOX or read Newsweek. Just plain ol' NBC nightly news explaining how, even though the NBC journalist/investigators could easily show you the footage of the Hamas training sites -- fake villages built for the express purpose of practicing for the invasion, and Hamas terrorists practicing parasailing for the invasion -- somehow Israel's intelligence didn't see it coming. The reasonable conclusion is that Israeli intelligence was to blame for not stopping the invasion. Well, if they'd only watch NBC News they woulda known. exactly.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 9:27:10 GMT -5
Post by Cornflake on Oct 14, 2023 9:27:10 GMT -5
I don't see how Israel can avoid an invasion of Gaza. It has a fine line to walk, though. Violence against Israeli civilians doesn't justify violence against Palestinian civilians. Most of those had nothing to do with the attack against Israel. That's easy enough to say for an American, watching it all from a distance. It'll be a lot harder in practice for those on the ground. Israel mostly has the world's sympathy for now but it could lose it pretty easily.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 11:10:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by coachdoc on Oct 14, 2023 11:10:00 GMT -5
What if, just for a while, we could go inside ourselves and imagine a world that was free of hatred and prejudice and revenge and war. Hold that vision in your mind for a while and imagine how good that would feel. It might seem so impossible and so pie-in-the-sky that it wouldn't be even worth the few minutes it would take up in your busy life. Just do it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 11:30:03 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Oct 14, 2023 11:30:03 GMT -5
Israeli intelligence may not have known this attack was coming, but it couldn't have been the best kept secret in the world in Gaza. A whole lot had to know something and many had to know it all. No tips or warnings from Gaza came Israel's way. Hamas has broad support in Gaza. Hamas is made up of civilians. Without support, there would be no Hamas. The guilt extends well beyond just those that crossed the border and pulled the trigger.
There is a reason Hamas has broad support in Gaza. And there is a reason why Israel wants to eliminate Hamas and its support. Both sides have their reasons. Innocence? Guilt? Pick a side. Then call it your way.
We are on Israel's side. I am on Israel's side. But there are a lot of sides to this deal. And no solution. Unless something drastic flips the entrenched and brings a sea change.
The irony is, there is plenty of land, plenty of space for all. Throw away the damn screwball maps and borders. And the dumbass hidebound religion dominated cultures.
But, it will take something drastic, otherwise, it's just kick the can down the road until... until something drastic happens.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 11:59:51 GMT -5
Post by epaul on Oct 14, 2023 11:59:51 GMT -5
Just look at that stupid map of the Middle East. Look at it. www.britannica.com/place/Middle-EastLandlocked Jordan. Lots of land, no access to the sea, no natural resources. Look at Saudi Arabia. Huge expanse of empty land with a couple thousand miles of coastline and enough natural resources to make a decent life for everyone in entire region instead of just a few fat-assed royals and their fleas. Yet, the current map's solution for the Palestinians is to carve a couple stupid little chunks out of tiny little Israel. Stupid little chunks that can't possibly be self-sustaining. They're damn reservations. That little teensy ridiculously crowded dot called Gaza is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. It's West Berlin after WWII. Worse. And it was done on purpose... and it can't possibly succeed. The West drew the stupid Middle East map. And it was an idiot job intent only on creating a stable supply of Oil. Redraw the map. Give Jordan the northern third of Saudi Arabia with that wonderful coastline and whatever oil is there. And relocate the Palestinians in this new land with water and oil and hope. Anything will be better than that little hellhole Gaza or that stupid, landlocked, no resources, West Bank. Both places are shitholes. With no hope for other. That's my drastic. And it is a hell of a lot better than some of the other drastics that will be coming down the pike if kick the can down the road is all that is ever done. www.britannica.com/place/Middle-East
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 13:04:01 GMT -5
Post by Cornflake on Oct 14, 2023 13:04:01 GMT -5
Dragging noncombatants into war is a complicated subject and I'm no expert. I think it used to be generally accepted in the US that it was impermissible. Sherman's name was long reviled in the south after the civil war because he made war against women and children. Part of the reason that what Hamas did revolted most of us was that civilians were the primary target of its attack.
I still think it's immoral to attack people who can't defend themselves, even if they sympathize with the enemy. If Hamas hides behind innocent civilians, some civilian deaths may be unavoidable. But Israel needs to be very careful. As I said, it's a fine line.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 13:11:29 GMT -5
Post by Cornflake on Oct 14, 2023 13:11:29 GMT -5
After my last post, I noticed that the New York Times had an editorial about this very subject. www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/opinion/israel-gaza-war.html An excerpt: Israel stands on the verge of invading Gaza in response to the terrorist attacks by Hamas that many, including Israel’s leaders, have compared to Sept. 11 not just because of the scale and savagery but also because the terrorists sought to destroy the tranquillity of daily life. They killed the very young and the very old, the strong and the weak, civilians and soldiers; they took some 150 hostages, including children, and survivors said the attackers raped women — all to send a message that no Israeli was safe. Israel has a responsibility to its citizens to hold accountable the perpetrators of this violence, but as Secretary of State Antony Blinken said this week, “How Israel does this matters.” Israel cannot win this war just by killing all the terrorists. It is determined to break the power of Hamas, and in that effort it deserves the support of the United States and the rest of the world. But it can succeed only by upholding the rules and norms of behavior that Hamas so wantonly ignores. What Israel is fighting to defend is a society that values human life and the rule of law. To do that, the means and the ends of its military response must be consistent. Israel’s goal is to destroy Hamas; in doing that, it should not lose sight of its commitment to safeguard those who have not taken up arms. The Israeli Army acknowledges and espouses an obligation not to target civilians for military purposes, and to avoid actions that inflict disproportionate harm on civilians, such as destroying an entire city block to kill fighters in a specific building that could be targeted more precisely. But this war is unfolding in an atmosphere of intense emotion, notably in the recent remarks by Israel’s defense minister, Yoav Gallant, who said that Israel was fighting “human animals.” Israel is preparing to send its young men and women into battle, where they will face an enemy that does not respect the same rules of warfare that they have committed to. Hamas is known to hide its fighters among civilians, and an indifference to their suffering is central to its brand of terrorism. Hamas is using the people of Gaza as human shields against Israel’s bombing campaign, and as Gazans try to escape, Hamas still holds the hostages who were kidnapped last Saturday. The group has threatened to kill them one by one with every airstrike that hits Gazans in their homes. Israeli soldiers will look to their leaders to guide their actions and decisions on the battlefield to make sure that they, unlike Hamas, make distinctions between civilians and combatants. Protecting civilians is also the most sensible way forward. Ending Hamas’s control over Gaza is an essential step, but a military victory will not mean much if young Gazans regroup under another extremist banner. Israel and its allies — and the Palestinians and their allies — have a shared interest in setting Gaza on a path to a different future. To do that, Palestinians first need to see that their lives and their safety are taken into account by Israel in its conduct of this war.
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Post by theevan on Oct 14, 2023 13:35:35 GMT -5
By giving warning as best they can it seems Israel is checking that box. I very much doubt their efforts will eliminate as many civilian casualties as they could. Doesn't the blame for that rest on Hamas? They've been telling the populace to stay where they are. Using people as propaganda fodder...yuck.
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Israel
Oct 14, 2023 15:10:56 GMT -5
Post by Marshall on Oct 14, 2023 15:10:56 GMT -5
To millrings's point, I heard an interview on NPR a couple days ago. All Things Considered, I think. And the interviewer was interviewing the head of the PLO, (I think. It was a West Bank official for sure). And the Palestinian went on about the treatment that the Palestinians have under Israelie rule. His concerns are real. But I was waiting for the interviewer to ask if the Palestinian condemned or supported the Hamas attack.
. . . , But the question never came.
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